VIDEO: Why Aliens Probably Exist

This is a pretty cool 2 minute video from New Scientist magazine which sums up the reason most scientists suspect alien life exists and sums up both probabilistic arguments for our galaxy being populated as well as answers to Fermi's paradox.

Enjoy.

It's impossible for there not to be life on other planets; however, when people throw around the word "alien," it often alludes to lifeforms either matching or surpassing our intelligence and technological advancement. We've found proof of molecular life on asteroids; it's likely that they carry life and water from planet to planet.

Life is out there, it's just not a bunch of green geniuses flying around in little saucers. That's just impractical.

We can assume that if a planet has vegetation, it has life.

watching the animation this came to mind immediately

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bother all down here on Earth

and i think that's the only answer needed here

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Vegetation itself would be counted as life

a reply to: Emerald53

Neat video Jade! As far as vegetation goes, I will almost be happier finding a planet filled with jungles and forests than i would a planet with massive cities. If we found a planet with complex life in a natural setting I would be tickled pink knowing there may be hope in this galaxy

a reply to: JadeStar

An excellent display of how science can't see the trees because of the forest. In this case, the "trees" being legitimate UFO sightings and the forest being the instance that we must look "out there" with SETI, Kepler, etc. to find the ETs. Maybe if we started calling the UFOs a term such as VETs (Visiting Extra-Terrestrials), we could better mesh them into an honest view of reality that suits those of us that see such craft and the scientific view based on probability (and increasingly based on fact).

TY for the affirmation I believe we cannot be so conceited as to think that we are the only intelligent life in this vast universe.

Count me in

I can't come out and say for a fact that there is no intelligent life out there, however, I will say that what we've been experiencing in this World for centuries isn't 'alien visitation,' of that you can be sure. I made a comment earlier about how the 'aliens' can never seem to agree on what they want, or even agree on where they originated.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: JadeStar

An excellent display of how science can't see the trees because of the forest. In this case, the "trees" being legitimate UFO sightings and the forest being the instance that we must look "out there" with SETI, Kepler, etc. to find the ETs. Maybe if we started calling the UFOs a term such as VETs (Visiting Extra-Terrestrials), we could better mesh them into an honest view of reality that suits those of us that see such craft and the scientific view based on probability (and increasingly based on fact).

Science has repeatedly examined UFOs and so far not found the reports of them that useful, credible or repeatable. That doesn't mean it hasn't looked at the subject it just means the evidence thus far does not rise to the standard that would be needed for the scientific community to declare UFO reports mean that extraterrestrial aliens exist.

I would like to point you to a guy who has his feet in both worlds Astrophysicist Peter A. Sturrock.

You should read Appendix 6 and Appendix 7 of this document: Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports:
The Proceedings of a Workshop Held at the Pocantico
Conference Center, Tarrytown, New York,
September 29 - October 4,1997

Here is an excerpt:
Appendix 6. SETI and UFO Investigations Compared

These subjects are currently being investigated widely and were featured among the many areas discussed at an international meeting in July 1996 held in Capri, Italy, on the subject of Astronomical and Biochemical Origins and the Search for Life in the Universe (Cosmovici et al., 1997).

About 200 astronomers, biologists, chemists, physicists, and other scientists from 27 countries met for this Fifth International Conference on Bioastronomy and Colloquium No. 161 of the International Astronomical Union.

This meeting was supported by international and national scientific organizations including the International Astronomical Union, the International Scientific Radio Union, the National Aeronautical and Space Administration, the European Space Agency, the Consiglio Nazionale delle Richerche, and other Italian organizations; clearly, this was a mainstream scientific meeting. The SETI community was very visibly represented in all aspects of the conference, but the problem posed by UFO reports was never mentioned.

However, the UFO and SETI communities share defining attributes including a surfeit of putative evidence that remains unidentified, and the lack of a single example that can be unequivocally verified, repeated, understood, or captured. That is, both are subject areas of investigation that totally lack identified objects. Then why is one moving into the mainstream of acceptable science while the other is not?

It may not be generally realized that the several different groups of SETI observers have received and tabulated an appreciable number of URS, or unidentified radio signals, in the course of listening to billions of radio channels for hundreds of thousands of hours, looking in tens of thousands of directions. They measure signals that are noise and signals that range up to many times stronger than can be explained in terms of natural noise.

They identify nearly all of the strong signals as coming from radio and TV stations, from military radars and various kinds of communications systems, from satellites and deep space probes launched by various national and international organizations, and from many kinds of equipment that leak electromagnetic energy over broad spectral bands. After very thoughtful and vigorous winnowing, there has been a residual number of strong signals received by every group that are, and will no doubt remain, unidentified.

But these are not described and released to the media as something unusual or mysterious. This is because they
could not be verified by other observers or by repeat observations at the same frequency and in the same direction in the sky. Improved techniques and protocols are being developed to markedly reduce the frequency of URS (even to
the point where there may be concern that a real ETI signal could be discarded).

Nevertheless, it is to be expected that continuing URS will persist in the SETI endeavor, and will remain unidentified and undiscussed.

Contrast that approach with modern UFOlogy where it seems every unidentified light in the sky is advanced as proof of aliens, nothing resembling a credible scientific journal exists (MUFON Journal is more a UFO magazine than a peer-reviewed research journal) and UFO symposia are story telling sessions of one wild tale after another set up primarily for entertainment purposes (so almost no vetting, and very little if any examination of the credibility of the speakers).

Today, there is very little interest in identifying UFOs because that takes away from the money-making aspect many in the field benefit from.

So basically with out any real filters modern UFOlogy is far from scientific evidence and more like a self sustaining belief system which is often self delusional.

Until this changes it will be hard to convince many in the sciences to re-examine it because the subject is full of noise. Where once people like James McDonald, Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek served as filters for this noise now the noise is pushed to the forefront by people like Stephen Greer, James Gilliland and David Jacobs.

Here's another excerpt:

The SETI and UFO problems may or may not be related to each other. As there does not so far exist any proof concerning this question, it seems wise to keep those two problems apart and not to confuse them. The questions raised by the UFO and SETI problems are not at all comparable, and the strategies for their research are drastically different. The SETI problem corresponds to a one-bit theoretical question: does there exist, elsewhere in the universe, any form of intelligence that has reached the technological level of transmitting intelligent electromagnetic signals that humans could detect and identify?

Although this question is undoubtedly exciting and justified by existing probabilistic computations about the existence of planets, the appearance of life, the duration of a civilization, etc., the final answer is theoretically Yes or No. However, only a Yes answer will be final, since a No answer may be revised in view of technical improvements of detection techniques.

The UFO problem arises from the verified existence of a very large and coherent set of testimonies worldwide. Its approach is bound to be in three steps:

Step 1. Try by all means to identify the stimulus that has led to the report: the report may be due to inadequate information, misinterpretation of a familiar phenomenon or device, an unusual astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon, an unusual technological device, or a hoax (perpetrated by the reporter or on the reporter).

Step 2. If Step 1 has not yielded an explanation of the report, try to characterize the event that led to the report and compare it with other case descriptions.

Step 3. For any case that is strong in testimony and rich in detail, one should try to define a model. In this activity, we are clearly not dealing with a simple question with a Yes /No (one-bit) answer. Different cases require analyses with different levels of complexity.

The SETI and UFO problems also involve different approaches. Scientists may pursue the SETI project and remain in a very familiar environment: the relevant technological area is clearly identified and one may follow a predefined strategy by specifying the frequency search band, the required receiver sensitivity, the intrinsic properties of an intelligent signal, etc.

On the other hand, research on the UFO problem is necessarily complex, multidisciplinary, unpredictable and must be expected to evolve as research progresses. The basic detection is usually carried out by unprepared human beings, and analysis may call upon a wide range of disciplines including human perception, psychology, astronomy, image processing, physics, chemistry, etc. Moreover, effective research in this field must be conducted with an open mind.

Although in public opinion the UFO and SETI projects are closely associated, they should be kept clearly separated as far as serious research is concerned. The questions being addressed are quite different in nature: the SETI project aims at a simple YesINo answer to the question of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence, whereas research into the UFO project must be pursued with a completely open mind as to the questions that need to be posed and answered. Moreover, the respective technical strategies have nothing in common.

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
I can't come out and say for a fact that there is no intelligent life out there, however, I will say that what we've been experiencing in this World for centuries isn't 'alien visitation,' of that you can be sure. I made a comment earlier about how the 'aliens' can never seem to agree on what they want, or even agree on where they originated.

^^THIS^^ Very good point, but then we are not all from the same place or space either Also this planet can never agree on anything, not even in one continent or county and so on and so on.

a reply to: JadeStar

The planet Earth being the only one in all of time and space to play host to complex life, is a mathematical improbability of staggering proportions, given the size of the universe and the number of stars and planets suspended within its gargantuan volume.

What remains to be seen, is how many of the complex organisms that are bound to be out there, have attained anything we would recognise as intelligence. And let us not forget, that intelligence is not like existence. A thing either exists, or it does not, but intelligence is a thing which is measured in strata, in nuance. We think ourselves an intelligent species, because we build tools to make our lives "easier", houses to keep us dry and warm, and we communicate using increasingly technological means, not to mention considering concepts beyond our immediate survival on a frequent basis, such as the one being discussed in this thread, for example.

However, crows and the entire family of birds from which they come, are also intelligent, and use tools to solve problems. It is incredible to consider, but it is true! They will use a twig or a stick to access hard to reach edibles inside cracks in stones, or holes in trees or the ground. They are capable of piling stones inside a container or hole full of water, to push the water closer to their questing beaks for drinking purposes. They cannot, however, program an old VCR, or set reminders on a satellite television control box.

Because intelligence is a relative measure, rather than a matter of either yes, or no, the answer to the question of whether there is intelligent life out there in the universe, is actually far more complicated than whether or not there are UFO riding, cow abducting brains on legs joy riding the universe for kicks out there some place!

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: JadeStar

An excellent display of how science can't see the trees because of the forest. In this case, the "trees" being legitimate UFO sightings and the forest being the instance that we must look "out there" with SETI, Kepler, etc. to find the ETs. Maybe if we started calling the UFOs a term such as VETs (Visiting Extra-Terrestrials), we could better mesh them into an honest view of reality that suits those of us that see such craft and the scientific view based on probability (and increasingly based on fact).

Sorry that the number of "legitimate" UFO sightings is *extraordinarily* slim and even worse so the number of "legitimate" accounts of Alien encounters/abduction. UNLESS you consider statements made under hypnosis etc. "legitimate". Science, especially "recently" is well open to the idea now of extraterrestrials, habitable planets, life on planets etc.... but there is a reason why mainstream science doesn't "investigate" any Youtube video, published UFO book/sighting/report.

Scientists like facts. An account by Bob J. in Tennessee or Dorey T. from Georgia having seen a light at night and thinking it must be an alien craft are not facts.

a reply to: JadeStar

Despite your belief in the infallibility of science--and we should use a big "S" on that word, because it is the true nature of Science itself that has failed in this regard. Not an accident. The government controls or calls the shots on about any scientific activity you can name. And you can't name anything any more top drawer of an intelligence matter than the early AF investigations that concluded that the "saucers" were ET craft.

Let us get this clear, neither the US government nor any full-fledged scientific endeavor that we have been told about has ever actively and sincerely engaged the UFO question.

Please don't insult our intelligence by mentioning the US Air Forces Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, and the rest of the PR stuff from the government over the decades of denial. They investigated sightings? Merely sightings from the public, and as Ruppelt reported in his book The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects he and others sometimes had to take a bus to interview the witnesses! And don't mention the so-called Condon Report. It was a whitewash also, doing no real work but picking and choosing reports to fit their pre-existing conclusion.

I'm repeating myself, but the US government has never, ever, publically investigated the phenomena to the full extent of the available techniques nor has it called for a hard science program of investigation from outside agencies. The government formerly denied the existence of ET craft and in the last few decades have retreated to simply say that they do not pose a threat to national security which we can take as tacit admission that they do exist.

I wonder, how many more or less young readers on ATS has ever read the details of the report called The Estimate of the Situation. Ordered by the top brass from the Air Force's own Intelligence division, it concluded that the UFOs were ET craft. The report, once received at HQ was officially refused and all copies ordered to the incinerator and the blanket denial began in earnest.

Simple. Graphic. Understandable. Nice video.

10 million years to take the entire galaxy over? In a span of 13 billion years I guess this could happen numerous times, according to probability.

originally posted by: JadeStar
This is a pretty cool 2 minute video from New Scientist magazine which sums up the reason most scientists suspect alien life exists and sums up both probabilistic arguments for our galaxy being populated as well as answers to Fermi's paradox.

Enjoy.

a reply to: JadeStar

I have to think in a million places "out there" there are civilizations asking...

"I'm guessing there has to be infantile, young, just developing civilization only a couple 100,000's of years old...with water, and green lands, and mountains, animals, fish...so developed they use hammers and nails and are just now learning to use "devices" for making things simpler in their primitive lifestyle."

"But, they are only SO developed and have no real grasp of the rest of the Universe(s) out here".

They are talking about EARTH...US.

Nothing new in the video. Not worth a thread. I've contributed more information on this topic in single posts than that video.

My thinking is some UFOs might be legitimate alien visitations, but it might also be extremely rare and unlike anything we read or see in popular media. One might ask why they have not returned or have not made a bigger show of their presence. Answering this question is like jumping into a pond with hungry crocodiles. We... just... don't... know. Maybe we'll know after we've acquired the ability to travel between the stars, if we ever do at all.

And there's another thing too. There're aliens here: Dolphins, Orcas, Chimps, Rhesus monkeys, Orangutans, Great Apes, Magpies, and even Elephants. All have passed the mirror test and many have impressive social structures. Failing to pass the mirror test does not mean a creature is not self aware, but any creature which lacks self awareness will fail the mirror test. This is to say there're probably other self aware creatures, as well as others whom might pass this test but haven't been tested yet. Furthermore, human children typically fail the mirror test until 18 months of age.

I believe we've only begun to grasp what's out there. We've only technically tested one other place - and only once and in a limited fashion - in our solar system for even basic living organism; Mars. While we can expect to see the signature of an alien fleet of ships approaching Earth from afar, we're likely not keen to all the ways we might fail to detect it. Not finding obvious signatures of intelligent ET's is far from confirmation of their absence. However, the expectation for extraordinary evidence to confirm the existence of intelligent ET's is warranted. When and if we finally discover the signature of living intelligent extraterrestrials, it'll be an amazing and sobering moment, as we'll both be in wonder and yet aware something else is out there, possibly as dangerous or more dangerous than ourselves.

I want to talk a bit about the potential for life to harbor elsewhere. At the moment, it's hte habitable zone which receives all the attention, but it's just the beginning. First, there're over a hundred moons in our solar system, most of which are not welcome places to life. However, if such places as Europa or Titan or Enceladus or Mimas or Ganymede can be the starting place for simple lifeforms then the window for where life can originate will open greatly. When one considers the atmosphere of gas giants, the numbers of planets and dwarf planets and moons, the numbers of rogue planets which might possess enough internal heating to have underground oceans, so on and so forth, one becomes overwhelmed by the sense life can potentially be in abundance. No, it's not a certainty, but the door is open until we can slam it shut when the evidence presents itself.

Hmm, don't think the video really made the case that life is probable in the rest of the universe unless that life all doesn't resemble us or use similar technologies- and while I'm sure some of it doesn't, I doubt its the case that all life out there is that different. If anything it introduced more doubts.

I do believe there is other technologically advanced life out there, I just think that the galaxy as a whole may have just recently calmed to the point that solar systems have stabilized enough for life to develop without being wiped out by natural causes. Then there are unnatural causes...wars, etc... And its entirely possible that we are on the high side of the maturity curve for life. That doesn't mean there isn't more technologically advanced life, it just means that we might be appearing at a time where that life hasn't had 10 million years to send out robots. And who knows if we saw the robots (ufos) and they were just gather data and moving on.

Gotta love people pissing down on a thread like this.

1. Government controlling or suppressing scientific research? Show us the proof of this. (And what about all the scientists that have expressed their optimism that Mars or other bodies in the Solar System can, or at least could have, supported extraterrestrial life? What about numerous NASA / ESA missions that look for signs of habitability, or even signs of past life?)

2. Think this video is useless? Move along and don't post in this thread.

~~~

Thank you Jade for this thread and for your research into alien life.

Regarding what we should look for, there's a cool general definition of what life is: life is a phenomenon whereby a system is able to reduce its internal entropy (the normally inevitable progression of chaos and disorder) at the cost of external resources, which it then discards in a degraded form. To look for life, is to look for this imbalance of entopy.

Entropy and life