Interesting new info concerning Christmas and the birth of Christ

Chris Putman a well known author and who has studied theology recently wrote a book about the birth of Christ and the story behind Christmas. Now before you decide to attempt to debunk his theory see what he has to say:

If you frequent social media, then you’ve probably been inundated with smarty pants pseudo scholars calling Christmas a “pagan holiday.” These under-informed accusers believe they have the goods with bold claims like Christmas trees are forbidden in Jeremiah 10 (a passage about the manufacture of Canaanite idols) and that the date of December 25th was adopted from the pagan holiday of Saturnalia (actually December 17th). The best way to respond to these claims is to ask them what evidence they have (from source documents). Most of the time this question will cause them to change the subject or elicit the chirping of crickets. The truth is most of the claims are dubious and have no actual evidence. Even if there were other holidays on the same date, it does not mean that they were even aware of each other. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. The leaps in logic are prohibitive and there is no source claiming the Christians appropriated pagan days until the 12th century! In the real world. reputable ancient source documents lay waste to the popular pagan origins theory concerning December 25. Biblical Archaeology Review is a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars. The article How December 25 Became Christmas provides ample evidence debunking the pagan origins myth, showing how it actually began, and even demonstrating how 12-5 was decided to be the date of Jesus’s birth. This dates back to the second century ( I challenge pagan theorists to antedate it). Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar. March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception. Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.[1] Of course, I am a nerd with Logos Bible Software and a searchable database of ancient documents including Tertullian. I verified the claim from the original source documents, Tertullian wrote: And the suffering of this “extermination” was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Cæsar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April (March 25)[2] The belief was that he died on the same day he was conceived. They believed the conception was on March 25 which became the Feast of the Annunciation, commemorating the angel’s appearance to Mary: “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth” (Luke 1:26 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ) This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes from fourth-century North Africa: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.” [3] The rationale was innocent enough, just add nine months to date of conception to determine when He was born and it lands on December 25th. It’s that simple. Paganism had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[1]Andrew McGowan, “How December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014 www.biblicalarchaeology.org... [2] Tertullian, “An Answer to the Jews,” in Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. S. Thelwall, vol. 3, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 160. [3] De solstitia et aequinoctia conceptionis et nativitatis domini nostri iesu christi et iohannis baptista as cited by Andrew McGowan, “How December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014 www.biblicalarchaeology.org...

The temperature is Israel on 12 Dec 2014 was 65 degrees. Don't forget the weather in Israel is much milder than most people know so it is very possible the shepherds could have easily been in the field tending their sheep in December.

I guess the hundreds of religious characters sharing this date as a birthday is just a long list of coincidences?

It's because they're all just worship of the SUN.. not the SON. Pay special attention to the name of that treatise. It's labeled "On solstices and equinoxes" and it concerns the birth and resurrection. Do some research based on science and not written by people trying to defend their religion against it.

originally posted by: TWA0918
I guess the hundreds of religious characters sharing this date as a birthday is just a long list of coincidences?

It's because they're all just worship of the SUN.. not the SON. Pay special attention to the name of that treatise. It's labeled "On solstices and equinoxes" and it concerns the birth and resurrection. Do some research based on science and not written by people trying to defend their religion against it.

This is a poor response to the article above. The article above is referenced - have you checked the references out?

How quick you are to reject this information. Your not one of the those

smarty pants pseudo scholars calling Christmas a “pagan holiday.”

that Chris Putnam was talking about are you?

originally posted by: TWA0918
I guess the hundreds of religious characters sharing this date as a birthday is just a long list of coincidences?

Hundreds, you say? I didn't know that. Can you name or point me in the direction of any sources covering ten or more?

It's because they're all just worship of the SUN.. not the SON. Pay special attention to the name of that treatise. It's labeled "On solstices and equinoxes" and it concerns the birth and resurrection. Do some research based on science and not written by people trying to defend their religion against it.

I'm not sure what exactly a defense of the roots of the christian tradition of Christmas against claims of paganism has to do with science one way or the other...

Where exactly were you intending to go with this? Apologies if I'm misunderstanding.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
My problem with Christmas is not necessarily that it IS pagan (although I'd always heard the association with the feast of Sol Invictus, not Saturnalia, as the root of the date), although it certainly does seem to be a co-opting of a pagan date as has been common practice throughout the church's (and associate society's) history otherwise as per Easter with its fertility symbolism and other associations, etc., it's that we've ascribed such weight and religious/biblical import to a day specified nowhere in scripture that have have associations with paganism, while we've shuffled actual holy days into the background.

I can't really understand the vociferous defense of Christmas and the like in light of this. It seems like we protest too much about the wrong thing, especially over a holiday and tradition that the earliest church as founded by Christ and his disciples would have had nothing to do with whatsoever.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I expect you'll also be coming up with a legitimate reason why Easter is celebrated with colored eggs and rabbits?
Because, you know, that totally wasn't taken from earlier pagan religious celebrations. Jesus was totally about the colored eggs and rabbits.

Here, you should find these educational. Merry Christmas!

en.wikipedia.org...

www.livescience.com...

www.history.com...

feel free to fact check.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I actually have already done my research into the subject. Having been raised in a heavily Christian family I was very skeptical of the argument that Jesus is just another in a long list of solar representations. His reference is to a Christian website that provided no real source from anything beyond speculative Christian teachers and philosophers. In fact the final paragraph in the article he used is:

In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.

So...please give me a source that is based on real historical evidence.

originally posted by: TWA0918
a reply to: DeathSlayer

I actually have already done my research into the subject. Having been raised in a heavily Christian family I was very skeptical of the argument that Jesus is just another in a long list of solar representations. His reference is to a Christian website that provided no real source from anything beyond speculative Christian teachers and philosophers. In fact the final paragraph in the article he used is:

In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.

So...please give me a source that is based on real historical evidence.

i just gave you three. although they do disagree with the op.

a reply to: Praetorius

You claim just as the OP that Christmas is a Christian religion. But is in fact just ASTROLOGICAL events personified and celebrated by pagans. If I can find a list of those religious characters I mentioned I'll post it for ya.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

The climate at the time of "Jesus" in the ME was much colder than now. Supposedly the Sea of Galilee used to freeze over back then during winter. Enabled people to walk across it. Sounds familiar?

a reply to: TzarChasm

So these links are here to convince me of what? I'm fully aware of the roots of the tradition. I'm simply stating where the people known as "Pagans" got it. The winter solstice, being the shortest day of the year, followed by days of increasing length, is the day that light begins gaining power over the darkness and cold. The spring equinox is celebrated because the sun finally wins over and days are longer than night allowing life and crops to begin thriving again.

a reply to: DeathSlayer


Chris doesn't know what he is talking about. This pagan holiday thing has been gone over in total long before he came along. And yea Jeremiah did get on the Christmas tree deal and in such a way as to make it very hard not to understand what he is talking about.

originally posted by: TWA0918
a reply to: TzarChasm

So these links are here to convince me of what? I'm fully aware of the roots of the tradition. I'm simply stating where the people known as "Pagans" got it. The winter solstice, being the shortest day of the year, followed by days of increasing length, is the day that light begins gaining power over the darkness and cold. The spring equinox is celebrated because the sun finally wins over and days are longer than night allowing life and crops to begin thriving again.

oh, "pagan" means heathen. basically someone who wasnt educated enough to know their theology or whatever. it could also mean civilian as in "not in god's army".

and yes, that is one belief. there are many variations across many cultures.

originally posted by: Praetorius

originally posted by: TWA0918
I guess the hundreds of religious characters sharing this date as a birthday is just a long list of coincidences?

Hundreds, you say? I didn't know that. Can you name or point me in the direction of any sources covering ten or more?

Well I couldn't find a list but here's a few. Hundreds do NOT share his birth date I shouldn't have worded if that way. I meant hundreds share his characteristics.
ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir.

BUDDIAH – INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One (Satan), while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

HERACLES – GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."

KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.

OSIRIS – EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years.

These all pre-date christ I Must add.

a reply to: TWA0918

You claim just as the OP that Christmas is a Christian religion.

No...as I mentioned, I believe it's a christian holiday that was co-opted from the observances of non-christians, in the vein of the church's tradition of doing so to ease the influx of new 'converts' via familiarity and the retaining of their current habits and traditions.

But is in fact just ASTROLOGICAL events personified and celebrated by pagans. If I can find a list of those religious characters I mentioned I'll post it for ya.

I don't think it's entirely accurate, but I'll grant you the first part there otherwise as close enough for the roots and initial observances. And I'd appreciate the latter as it's news to me, at least in such numbers as you mention.

Regards.

EDIT:
a reply to: TWA0918
Thanks for that and the clarification. I'll say I've seen such lists before and I haven't thus far been too impressed by how well (or not, I should say) they hold up when subjected to actual scrutiny. But I suppose that's a discussion for another thread, with a good bit more research required.

Thanks again

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: DeathSlayer

The climate at the time of "Jesus" in the ME was much colder than now. Supposedly the Sea of Galilee used to freeze over back then during winter. Enabled people to walk across it. Sounds familiar?

LOL. I suppose the ship there was some sort of early ice breaker then.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Yes. Just one view among many. But the only one scientifically verifiable as the source of these dates.

I really don't care about the roots too much, IMHO Christmas is what we make of it. Get a handle on the crazy, and appreciate the goodwill of the season. If you can't muster any up, then go out and help create some for others...it feeds back to you. Trying to claim religious exclusivity on Christmas violates the spirit of the season.

originally posted by: TWA0918
a reply to: TzarChasm

Yes. Just one view among many. But the only one scientifically verifiable as the source of these dates.

but still jesus wasnt born on the solstice.