Making E-juice, need help understanding the math behind proportions...

I've been making my own e-juice for a while now.

I've realized though, I'm making it to my liking in nicotine
and not been really *in control* of the recipes. For instance,
I'll usually just put in about 3ml of VG based nicotine at 6mg/ml
for 15ml bottles.

Friends of mine are constantly liking what I make, and I'm
concerned I may not have enough control over it to make it
in 12/18/24mg nicotine amounts for either a 30ml or 15ml
bottle.

My problem is this. There are TONS of instructional written
articles and YouTube videos out there. But, being a programmer,
they never make it succinct enough of an algorithm for me to follow.
It frustrates the crap out me, considering the code I write, yet I
have not been able to figure out the algorithm for making, for instance,
an exactly 6mg/ml 15ml bottle with a 70/30% breakdown of VG/PG.

Does anyone know the exact formula?

Something to the tune of

Xml of 6mg nic + Xml of VG at 70% + Xml
of PG at 30% + flavoring (say, 15% of total 30ml bottle size)

to make a Xml bottle of juice. But, I'm not just looking to make a specific
size bottle with specific nic level. I want to know the exact mathematical
equation to do this.

As I said, I can eyeball it, but for health purposes and satisfaction of
the vape, I want to be exact.

I've seen and tried various "calculators" out there, but I have two issues
with them.

A, they never seem to work when I use them, for instance coming
up with negative amounts of PG,VG, or Nic.

B, I'm not one to use a "black box" approach to anything, I prefer
to know the background and how it actually works. In this case,
it's a mathematical equation.

Any thoughts?


-NF

Might be a long shot but maybe you can contact one of the companies, or even a site that sells this stuff?

Also, anyone know how to convert pounds to Liters when it comes to VG?

I found a great source online, but they sell it in containers by the pound.

Unfortunately, I know that VG and PG have a greater density than water, for instance and therefore makes it more of a scenario comparing apples to oranges. I also know this dictates the outcome when accurately defining the overall volume.


Any chemists know the answer?



-NF

originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
Might be a long shot but maybe you can contact one of the companies, or even a site that sells this stuff?

That I could do, but honestly my thought was considering they don't list either by volume or both volume AND weight, I didn't think they'd readily know.


And yepp, you can find this stuff ALL over the web. I just so happen to have found some great resources for cheap prices.


-NF

Just to provide an example of the "equations" I'm finding out there...

For example, 18mg/ml e-juice has 18 milligrams of Nicotine in each milliliter of the juice. It follows that a 30 milliliter bottle would have 18 X 30, or 540 milligrams of Nicotine in the whole bottle, and a 500ml bottle of 60mg/ml would have 60mg in each milliliter (too strong to vape) but the whole bottle has 30,000 milligrams of Nicotine in it. Now that’s a whole lot of Nicotine Paw Paw.

Source

All I'm seeing here is a designation of total milligrams of nicotine, not the volume that should be used in the overall proportions of the concoction.


Any thoughts?



-NF

Here's another great "example" that actually suggests you use a calculator to do the math. Can you spot what's missing ?

I know there are several e-juice calculators out there. I recommend, since it is so easy to mess up and follow the recommendations of the calculator and not know you made an error (sort of like the "turn left now") that you do the multiply and divide with a regular 4 function calculator. If you think about it you can not mess up. The two important parameters for a batch of DIY are

A-Total Nic in the mix
B-Total Final Volume

The result is the strength.

If you want it to taste right, add flavor to your own taste. If you want it to vape and wick correctly, thin it, test it, thin it again. Use a calculator if you must, but understand the math.

In the above example, no effort is made to explain how you get the "strength" from (B) the total volume in an X sized ml bottle.

This is driving me nuts.



Thoughts?



-NF

I myself make eliquid and had the same problem you have figuring out the proper ratios. I recommend you take a look at this app for Android. E-Juice Lab play.google.com... - You'll be able to calculate the proper ratios and it works with any base, meaning it will properly calculate VG based Nicotine or PG based Nicotine mix, you can save your recipes and more.

If you don't have Android, I've found some online calculators:

www.steam-engine.org... (This is one of the most complete online calculator)
www.todmuller.com...
www.svapo.it...

a reply to: MrMaybeNot

Thanks for the response....


I'm truly looking for the equation behind the program....behind the recipe.

I'm not a fan of black boxes....



-NF

wtf is ejuice?
An energy drink?
Nicotine is a poison and very addictive.
The most poisonous an addictice subsance on the planet.

originally posted by: ecossiepossie
wtf is ejuice?
An energy drink?
Nicotine is a poison and very addictive.
The most poisonous an addictice subsance on the planet.

If you don't know, and are incapable of googling it, yet stating "nicotine is the most addictive substance on the planet", perhaps you shouldn't comment?

WTF are you even in here for?


Thanks so much for your "helpful" comment....no, really....



-NF

Alright, if any of you actually wanted the same answer I was asking for....I've found it. Finally got something that almost spelled it out, but not completely. Here's what I found....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'll use obvious examples so that it is easier to understand mentally, but you can easily do this for any batch after very little practice.

Here's an example: You have 100 mg/ml nic base, and you want 25mg/ml juice, let's say 10ml of it. This is wicked easy: 2.5ml of 100mg juice and 7.5 ml of 0 mg PG/VG.

2.5 ml of 100mg/ml (2.5 * 100) is 250mg of nicotine. 100 mg/ml is 100mg/1ml, so it looks like this in long form:

2.5ml...100mg
------- * ------- = 250 ml
1.........1ml

Because the 250mg is spread out through the whole batch we divide 250 mg of nicotine by the total finished volume (250mg/10ml) and you get 25mg/ml.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Source


Ok, here is what I wasn't catching before. The answer *IS* given above, it's just not stated clearly at all. It was part of the equation that ended up being left out, or overlooked.

The OP was saying 25mg nicotine (from a base dilution of 100mg/ml nicotine) in a 10 ml bottle is a total 2.5ml of nicotine base.

Thankfully, I end up troubleshooting alot of financial/accounting reports from the technical side of the programming behind it. Quite often, I'll get people asking "Where in the hell did this number come from? It makes no sense at all!". This was essentially the same problem I had.

What I end up having to do is to play with the numbers until they make sense mathematically, given the factors involved in the equation.

Here is what the OP was not really clear on.....

I figured out that the OP was using the following to determine 2.5ml of nicotine. 25mg per ml bottle of juice, in a 10ml bottle, equates to 2.5ml of nicotine base. 25(mg/ml) / 10 (ml bottle) = 2.5ml.

Truthfully, I'm not certain of the reason behind the math above. However, the proportion of nicotine to other substances in an X ml bottle makes sense to me, given that you want a low amount of nicotine considering it's toxicity and overall strength.


-NF

Now, I prefer a 6mg juice. I usually make test batches of 15ml. My nicotine base is 6mg/ml. Upon review, I believe I'm screwing myself as a 100mg/ml base nicotine is the same cost as a 6mg/ml. So, 6 (mg/ml) / 15 (ml bottle) is 2.5.
Therefore, 2.5ml of the 15ml bottle is the 6mg/ml nicotine base you use.


But, 2.5 mg/ml of nicotine base within a 15ml bottle makes sense. Here are the percentages...

((2.5 / 15 (rounded up)) * 100 (to get an actual percentage number, not a decimal))= 17% nicotine base.

That means that the rest of the mixture comes out to 83%. Naturally, you need to take into consideration the idea that your flavoring extracts need to be added, as it could add up to a significant amount of the 15ml bottle, which added to the ml of nicotine base and ml of PG/VG base would make more than 15ml.

Let's say you wanted to use 20% of the total bottle size as flavoring. This would be a strong flavor, kind of the intensity of a jolly rancher. That would mean that 3ml of the 15ml bottle would be flavoring overall. If this is actually the case, you'd need to apply the percentages of nicotine and PG/VG given above.

So, if you want a juice that is as tasty in intensity of a jolly rancher (many juices are of course fruit flavored), the following math would have to be done.

.2 * 12.5ml = 2.5ml (this is your flavoring)

12.5ml - 2.5ml = 10ml (this is the remainder of the bottle to be used by your nicotine and PG/VG mixture)

.17 * 15ml = 2.5 ml (nicotine base) rounded

.83 * 12ml = 10ml (PG/VG base) rounded

The final numbers all add up and make sense.

2.50ml (flavoring)
+ 2.50ml (nicotine base)
+ 10.00ml (PG/VG base)
______________________

15ml total juice



Now, there are two other aspects to take into consideration. This goes beyond my original question about figuring out how to make a 15ml bottle have 6mg/ml of nicotine.

What flavorings go into your overall flavor profile? If you make a strawberry cream, you'll pretty much have two extracts involved, strawberry and vanilla cream. You need to figure out the proportions there. I'd imagine it'd be 65% strawberry and 35% vanilla cream. Given that I bartended a long time ago, this is the way I'd imagine the breakdown of flavors to create the "strawberry cream" flavor. R&D is involved, as is personal test.

This would mean the following...

.65 * 2.5ml = 1.62ml strawberry flavoring.
.35 * 2.5ml = 0.88ml vanilla cream flavoring.

Next you have to think about the PG/VG ratio you prefer. Many people prefer a heavy throat hit (you really feel the inhale of vapor in your throat), where many people enjoy a heavy cloud (more vapor, visible white vapor). I happen to fall into the later camp. I use a PG/VG mix of 30% / 70%. This is an easy division for percentages.

.30 * 10ml = 3ml PG liquid
.70 * 10ml = 7ml VG liquid

(total above is actually 9.952 ml, not 9.96ml, but, it's close enough for horseshoes)


So, the absolute FINAL breakdown and math for a 15ml bottle of strawberry cream juice with a 6mg/ml content is as follows....

6 (mg/ml) / 15 (ml bottle) is 2.5.ml nicotine base out of a 15ml bottle
.2 * 12.5ml = 2.5ml (this is your flavoring)
12.5ml - 2.5ml = 10ml (this is the remainder of the bottle to be used by your nicotine and PG/VG mixture)
.30 * 10ml = 3ml PG liquid
.70 * 10ml = 7ml VG liquid

TOTALS

2.5ml nicotine base
1.62ml strawberry flavoring
0.88ml vanilla cream flavoring
3.0ml PG (Petrol Glycerine)
7.0ml VG (Vegetable Glycol)

added together, 2.5ml + 2.5ml + 3.0ml + 7.0ml = 15ml bottle of juice




Yes, long and detailed. However, I believe I've done a good job of what many others seem to not be able to explain absolute step by step. I truly hope my attempt at explain it this wasn't too round about.
Hope I didn't bore anyone!


-NF

OK, if I could delete a post, I would.

I am still questioning how the OP of the external article I quoted came up with

25mg/ml juice, let's say 10ml of it. This is wicked easy: 2.5ml of 100mg juice

I'm sitting here working it over in my head. The OP didn't account for the fact that the nicotine base of 100mg/ml was four times stronger than the desired 25mg/ml dose.

This makes me think that because it is four times stronger, it should use only 25% of the liquid.

This, in turn, makes me think I was off in my own dealing with 6mg/ml dose.

This is driving me crazy. And I felt that I was good with relatively basic algebraic math such as this.


CRAP.

Please offer up any advice you might have



-NF

All I knew for sure is that nicotine percentage is per ml, i.e. 12% nicotine of any bottle 7ml, 15 ml, 30 ml is 1.2% nicotine per ml. I haven't done diy but whenever I need info about vaping I Head over to ecigaretteforum.com, there's a lot of knowledgeable people over there. I have also seen the formula you are looking for there, just gotta search for it in the search box. Good luck.

There are five ingredients to make e-liquid namely VG, PG, flavor, diluted nicotine, and distilled water or vodka, though you may or may not use nicotine and vodka. At a bare minimum, e-juice can be made with just a PG/VG base and flavoring.

I. PROPYLENE GLYCOL (PG)

It’s the preferred base liquid of most DIY e juice makers, however, some may have allergies to PG. It’s a federally approved, colorless, odorless organic chemical compound used in a variety of products including tobacco, foods, and more. It’s also used in some medicinal products which can be inhaled, injected into the bloodstream, used orally or topically.

II. VEGETABLE GLYCEROL (VG)

Similar to PG but a natural liquid extract derived from vegetables, VG is more viscous (thicker) and has a slight tinge of sweetness to it. While PG doesn’t really impact the overall flavor but VG can, either in a good or bad way. It’s an FDA approved product used in foods, e-juices and even cosmetics. Most DIY e-juices use both PG and VG, as each brings unique characteristics to the e-liquid. We’ll discuss how to make vape juice with them and how they actually impact the end product in a later section.

III. DISTILLED WATER OR VODKA

While not really crucial to the mix, this is generally used to thin out 100% VG mixes. Vodka gives added throat hit, as well, without having to add nicotine. If you don’t want to use vodka, consider adding distilled water instead.

IV. FLAVORING

Flavors are available in a wide variety, but for better tasting e-liquid we recommend using flavors made particularly for inhaling instead of using the commonly used food flavorings. While the usual mix requires about 10-20% flavoring, some are strong enough to require only 5%. Therefore, when using a certain flavor, make sure you read the labels and understand how it will impact your mix.

V. NICOTINE LIQUID

You will use diluted nicotine liquid that can be in PG or VG-base, available in various strengths. For beginners trying out how to make vape juice, you can choose any nicotine strength between 8 to 24mg and then experiment with it to find your sweet spot.