The real reason for the forty-hour workweek

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
a reply to: Hanslune


This is from your wiki article on the machiguenga....

The average tribal woman marries around age 16, and women have an average of eight to ten pregnancies. As with many indigenous tribes, the mortality rate for infants is high.[2] During meals, men always eat first, while the women and children divide what remains.[citation needed] While quite accomplished in using plants and herbs as medicine, the Machiguenga are susceptible to infectious diseases brought in from the outside world.[2] Literacy rates range from 30% to 60%

Their huts are fashioned from palm tree poles as a frame, with palm leaves thatched for the roof.[6] Each extended family group is governed by a self-appointed "headman".


I'm not to sure most modernized people are willing to trade their forty hour week for grass huts and malaria. But I have been wrong before.

I would suspect they wouldn't like it. Interestingly Arab and Indian culture also have women eating after the men.

The other problem with HG life is that can be very violent (depends on the group).

originally posted by: chizay
You think you enjoy it because it seemed like you had a choice when they say "you can do anything in life" and you failed to recognize that the only thing you could actually do and still live comfortably is to make money. If we really had a choice then would we be able to choose not to make money? Instead we have to find someone and let them tell us our time is only worth pieces of paper.

Nope..you are wrong..

I loved phones when i was younger..I loved figuring out how dialtone works and how complex switching is.
I chose to continue doing that over the course of my career.
I do that now and i get paid very well for it and that allows me to live life the way I want.
So keep feeling like the Matrix is real and you are fighting the good fight..meanwhile I'll continue to live life my way and chances are our paths will never cross.

I'm kinda disappointed that my thread is generating such "heated" debates and discussions because wasn't that the scope of it. I just thought it'd be nice to share something that no matter how you spin it, is as logical as it can be. However I'm not surprised by the reactions of some. If we all shared the same understanding, love and compassion toward each other and a better stand against whoever is using the many to make the life of the few a paradise on Earth, things would have been different, this reality per say would be different. But the truth is what is is, we're just selfish, cynical and stupid little humans who think that have figured out the key to success and the happy living. And being exploited is what we deserve. Over 2000 years of history (at least better recorded one) have proven how week, corrupted, full of vices and easily manipulated we are. The motto of the modern human or today human is: As long as I'm good, screw all. As long as I feel good, screw all. As long as I have my own conviction (who gives a rat's @ss if they're totally rotten) and they make me enjoy all I have, screw all...

And we wonder (at times) why TPTB controls us so perfectly. Just read this thread and some of the replies. Sad but true.

(I love Metallica btw).

originally posted by: Annunak1
Modern day slavery.
F#ck this system and the people that created it
We will break free

RIGHT ON!! Break free from these BASTARDS! Lets fee this whole planet! FREEDOM!!!

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: chizay
You think you enjoy it because it seemed like you had a choice when they say "you can do anything in life" and you failed to recognize that the only thing you could actually do and still live comfortably is to make money. If we really had a choice then would we be able to choose not to make money? Instead we have to find someone and let them tell us our time is only worth pieces of paper.

Nope..you are wrong..

I loved phones when i was younger..I loved figuring out how dialtone works and how complex switching is.
I chose to continue doing that over the course of my career.
I do that now and i get paid very well for it and that allows me to live life the way I want.
So keep feeling like the Matrix is real and you are fighting the good fight..meanwhile I'll continue to live life my way and chances are our paths will never cross.

It's more about not having to turn any hobby into a way of life because its necessary to keep up with a financial norm.
I feel the same way you do but about my music but trying to turn it into a career has threatened to kill the magic

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: Annunak1
Modern day slavery.
F#ck this system and the people that created it
We will break free

Have fun with that.
I love my career because it's what I enjoy doing and Im getting paid very well to do it.
Blah blah blah , the man is always holding someone down.

I got mine to hell with everyone else
Have fun with that
blah blah blah arrogant blah blah

a reply to: DJW001

Man your completely brainwashed to think we worked that long. The only real reason why industrial Era has to work so long is because of the Wars. In truth we worked less in the past than today(this doesn't include slavery). Why were people working like crazy on the agrarian societies? Its because of War and obviously Slavery. Heck I bet all those soldiers coming back to help work on the farm field would reduce work time by more than half a day. If you want food, grab some from the farmland and feed yourself. Then there is no reason why 1 worker should be wasting hours picking out food to sell them to an army of thousands, who is too busy conquering. Also the past many Armies burn crop fields, so that their civilization need food from internal source. More army = more time on working.

Just look at the two World War Eras. The government was at war and the companies that were abusive to workers had no choice but, to start mass hiring the population to build war machines, feed population, etc to speed up production.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
I'm not to sure most modernized people are willing to trade their forty hour week for grass huts and malaria.

Depends, what is freedom worth to you?

originally posted by: James1982
I got mine to hell with everyone else
Have fun with that
blah blah blah arrogant blah blah

YAH!!!
Wait, when did I say that? Oh right..I didn't..

My career is something I have always enjoyed doing since I was younger, in having that career I can provide for my family and live the way I want. If that makes me arrogant, oh well.

a reply to: crazyewok

Don't forget that a lot of Europe has a four day work week - it' s much more common when outside of North America. And take Italy, most of Italy takes the entire month of August off. You can still make money and have a quality life, but you don't necessarily have to sacrifice SO MUCH free time that could be put to good use in developing something in your life other than your work life.

originally posted by: threeeyesopen
a reply to: Telos

Gee I wonder how much time all those execs put in at work..oh yeah, barely any!

Sorry, I don't normally defend the CEO's or Execs but this is just plain wrong. They work very long hours, and then clock out and work even longer hours at home. I have a close family member, CEO of a large property. He wakes up at 3 AM, gets breakfast/workout, in work at 5, stays there until 7pm, gets home at 8, eats a brief meal and goes to bed by 9 for 6 hours of sleep.

He does this 6 days per week. On the 7th day he stays home and prepares powerpoint reports for the following week.

I once calculated his working time and if you include travel it's 16 hours per day 6 days a week and then another 12 hours on the other day. That's a 108 hour working week when things are routine, things occasionally pop up and increase that. He gets paid well and loves his job, but the workload is very high. It's not something I would wish on anybody.

originally posted by: chizay
It's more about not having to turn any hobby into a way of life because its necessary to keep up with a financial norm.
I feel the same way you do but about my music but trying to turn it into a career has threatened to kill the magic

There have been many studies done that people enjoy a task less when they are paid for it. A lot of hobbyists never go professional for just that reason. Getting business involves sucks the magic out of it.

Then again, plenty of others like me have been attempting to turn their dream jobs into actual jobs. The way to do this is to find other hobbies you like. In your case that means turning the music into "work" and picking up something new to fill the void.

This story, that has made it's way around Facebook for quite a while now, is what came to mind when I read the OP.

Indian Chief ‘Two Eagles’ of the Patawomeck, a tribe in Virgina that still is not recognized by the government, was asked by a white U.S. government official, “You have observed the white man for 90 years. You’ve seen his wars and his technological advances. You’ve seen his progress and the damage he’s done.”

The Chief nodded in agreement.

The official continued, “Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?”

The Chief stared at the government official for more than a minute and then replied, “When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.”

Then the chief leaned back and smiled, “Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.”

Source.

Not to say we could just magically revert to a hunger/gatherer/tribal society and live happily ever after. But on the other hand, the idea that the only option we have is to trade time for money on a fixed fee basis (wage, salary, contract hourly rate, whatever) to me is a fallacy, especially in the context of the "new economy" (as discussed here for example.) On that note, Tim Ferriss's book The 4 Hour Work Week focuses on designing an ideal lifestyle to your taste, based on your goals, preferences, dreams etc. and funded by entrepreneurial creativity, with the specific goal of escaping cubicle land. He provides case studies and examples of how he and others have accomplished this, and argues that anyone with the willingness to put the effort in can do the same.

Something else that comes to mind, somewhat related to this discussion, is the fact that economists and agriculture scientists have been predicting that the current system of corporate and large scale farming is unsustainable and that the world's food production system needs to transition to small independent (family) farming, in order to adequately feed the growing population without completely depleting our planet's natural resources.

This is discussed here although I thought there were better articles that I cannot find examples of right now, a couple of months back when I first saw the story in Google news headlines.

The point being, that if we do shift as a society in this direction, then the concept of working one's own land and producing food for your own family and community would be a movement away from the corporate 40 hour work week scenario. And while it might require working dusk till dawn, it still provides independence and thus more flexibility I would guess, along with an opportunity to connect with the land, seasons, natural processes and cycles, without the same kind of stress that is created by the power structures and deadlines we have in the corporate world.

Again, not saying I or others could/would just wake up one day and make drastic changes in our work or as a society, but I also don't think we should assume that only one construct is possible, or that we don't have options.

I can't believe so many on here are happy to work 40 hours a week.

These people obviously do not have loved ones/children who they would miss dearly whilst working.

I spend more time with people I work with than my family/daughter. THAT IS CRIMINAL.

As a society we are brainwashed into thinking we have it good because we can get jobs and make money to have stuff. Total rubbish.

I could provide for my family much better if I were not trapped in this hellish modern existence.

And yes, I do enjoy my work but I can't think of anything in the world I would want to do 40 hours a week. Even music. A hobby can not be a job and give the same enjoyment all the time.

Damn right, f***this world and f*** the system. And if you disagree with that statement? Yes, you are indeed brainwashed or have no loved ones to miss.

EDIT: Or you're a lucky person who works from home (does nothing but gets paid for it usually!)

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: Annunak1
Modern day slavery.
F#ck this system and the people that created it
We will break free

Have fun with that.
I love my career because it's what I enjoy doing and Im getting paid very well to do it.
Blah blah blah , the man is always holding someone down.

Great for you, I AM SO happy for you. I'm sure that an uneducated single mother of 3 taking working 16 hour days is also VERY happy for you. Try putting yourself in other people's shoes every once a while instead of focusing on yourself all the time

originally posted by: RamsOnTop
Great for you, I AM SO happy for you. I'm sure that an uneducated single mother of 3 taking working 16 hour days is also VERY happy for you. Try putting yourself in other people's shoes every once a while instead of focusing on yourself all the time

Okay so I have put myself in that persons shoes, now what? When I work 16 hours day is it any less valid? When she works as hard on something different is it any less valid? Nope..Work is work..and it takes places at different levels, with different skills and different results.

Im not even sure why or when it became wrong on ATS to be:

1. Successful
2. Happy
3. Enjoying Life
4. Providing for my family and loved ones.

Hey opethPA, you do realize that this thread is not about you, right? I mean I'm happy for you (virtually) but it is not just about one person or few of them. Is the principal that is being discussed in here. One or few being happy and feeling successful don't represent the whole.

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: RamsOnTop
Great for you, I AM SO happy for you. I'm sure that an uneducated single mother of 3 taking working 16 hour days is also VERY happy for you. Try putting yourself in other people's shoes every once a while instead of focusing on yourself all the time

Okay so I have put myself in that persons shoes, now what? When I work 16 hours day is it any less valid? When she works as hard on something different is it any less valid? Nope..Work is work..and it takes places at different levels, with different skills and different results.

Maybe you're missing the point? I was trying to get at the fact that a single mother of 3 working 16 hours a day has a lot more challenges working 40+ hour weeks than you. She cannot possibly raise those children effectively where they will be contributors to society. It's all part of the vicious cycle (point of the thread) that keeps us enslaved, unable to enjoy life, unable to medidate, exercise, educate yourself and all those things that a human being must go through in order to be spiritually fulfilled. When those 3 kids grow up they will either get a low paying job (therefore continuing the brutal cycle) or they will end up 6 feet under or in jail. Either way the cycle goes on and on.

a reply to: crazyewok

Time between planting and harvesting was spent digging ditches, mending fences, repairing anything that needed it, working your own vegetable plot, collecting firewood, storing food for the winter, this list just goes on and on.

originally posted by: RamsOnTop
Maybe you're missing the point? I was trying to get at the fact that a single mother of 3 working 16 hours a day has a lot more challenges working 40+ hour weeks than you. She cannot possibly raise those children effectively where they will be contributors to society. It's all part of the vicious cycle (point of the thread) that keeps us enslaved, unable to enjoy life, unable to medidate, exercise, educate yourself and all those things that a human being must go through in order to be spiritually fulfilled. When those 3 kids grow up they will either get a low paying job (therefore continuing the brutal cycle) or they will end up 6 feet under or in jail. Either way the cycle goes on and on.

Now that is a much more complete scenario and more in line with the OP.
I dont see it as being a vicious cycle though and since their really isn't anything I am going to say that is going to agree with the type of answer you are looking for I'll bow out.
As the OP said, this post isnt about me and I am not trying to hijack anything.