Is your establishment a 'gay bar'? The right to refuse goes both ways.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

I didn't know that, thank's for the input

For the record I'm against certain deeds, but not any people as a whole.

originally posted by: Emerald53
a reply to: kaylaluv

How odd, this is the second time I've had to tell you that the business is not merely a bakery but a catering company. They would have had to go to the wedding ceremony and cater to the couple the whole time they celebrated their wedding. That is a Christian nightmare as equally as it is gay nightmare that I would come into a gar bar preaching against their deeds.

You're discriminating against religious business owners than. You're saying if they don't agree with what is politically correct at the time than they shouldn't own a business ? It's not that Christians are discriminating against the people, it's the deed we don't like. It's against our law to serve you. You can't force us to break our moral convictions.

How many times must I say that if you don't want to provide the same product or service to everyone, then you should not own a business. It doesn't matter what the business is or what the business sells.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: kaylaluv

a reply to: Emerald53

From my understanding, a business reserves the right to refuse service to anyone. It may not be a smart business move to anger the gay community by refusing to cater a wedding, but it is certainly within their right. I could open a bar in the U.S. right now that says "No blacks allowed" and I wouldn't be breaking any laws. I wouldn't stay open for very long, but I also wouldn't be arrested.

This is simply not true. There are non-discrimination laws that prohibit any public accommodation from turning away people solely on the basis of their race or religion. On a state-by-state basis, some states have added sexual orientation to the list of protected groups.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Is that so? I'm not exactly a law major so I'm rather limited in my understanding of law. Can you point me toward the specific law so I can look into it myself? I love expanding my knowledge.

1. Why do you all think this is a gay bar? I can't find any support for that. It's called "Proud" because that's the owner's name. His response about gay food, gay loo, etc., is sarcasm.

2. This is in the UK. I don't know the laws.

3. In the US, he has every legal right to deny service based on a customer's perceived bigotry. He's not denying people BECAUSE of their religion. He's denying them because they are bigots (or he perceives them that way). That's legal in the US.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

This is confusing for me also. I can't find anything that says that "Proud" is, in fact, a gay bar.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

www.law.cornell.edu...

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

This is confusing for me also. I can't find anything that says that "Proud" is, in fact, a gay bar.

I've been reading other articles, travel advisers and reviews. No mention of a gay bar. Alex Proud has a very diverse employee and customer base, so they are open to diversity. It sounds like a great place. I'd love to go.

The problem Alex Proud had with this company's request is that people think it's OK to shun gay people because of one's religion. Like it's completely understandable and acceptable. That's what pissed him off. Because it's not acceptable to him. And I agree.

a reply to: kaylaluv

You are correct that businesses cannot deny services based on religion, but that's not why he cancelled this party. He cancelled the party because he perceived the very question to be homophobic and his place is all about diversity.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Is asking if a bar is a gay bar homophobic? Completely understand the owner not wanting bigots in his club but the cancellation seems an over reaction.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Thank you! I have some reading material now. Take all of my stars.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Well, that's what I get for assuming the OP was correct - you'd think I would know better by now

My only beef with the bar owner is that the person sending the letter wasn't making any judgments about anyone (religious or gay) - they were just wanting to let those people know what kind of bar it was in case they wanted to opt out. People certainly have a right to not participate if it's not their thing. The company seemed to have no problem at all with booking the bar if it was gay. As far as legally? Yeah, the bar owner had a right to turn them away, since it wasn't based on religion. I'm sure plenty of Christians go to the bar and are welcomed.

a reply to: cuckooold

In general, I say good for him. Three cheers for freedom!

We all have the right to choose with whom we associate, whether in business or personal dealings, for whatever reason we choose. We also have the right to be true to our conscience, whether in faith or otherwise. We also own our labor and to force anyone to labor against their conscience is involuntary servitude. So just as the Christian bakery has no obligation to bake a gay wedding cake, so too does the hairdresser have no obligation to cut the hair of the less-than-gay-friendly governor.

I might look at it differently if it were a corporation as opposed to a mom and pop business, because corporations receive special considerations exempting themselves from free market conditions, but the devil would be in the details.

In specific, I'm rather surprised Mr. Proud took such offense to the company's request for further information... but he apparently felt strongly enough about it deny himself the potential income, and for that I respect him.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Is asking if a bar is a gay bar homophobic?

No, but saying that attending a gay bar is against some people's religion could be seen as homophobic.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
My only beef with the bar owner is that the person sending the letter wasn't making any judgments about anyone (religious or gay) - they were just wanting to let those people know what kind of bar it was in case they wanted to opt out.

What if the organizer had asked if it was a "black bar", saying that some of the religious people wanted to know...

I guess Alex Proud just didn't like the idea that many religious people think it's OK to discriminate based on someone's sexual preference. The organizer asked about it, as if it was a perfectly acceptable thing to say. It's really not.

People certainly have a right to not participate if it's not their thing.

Absolutely! But if I had planned a party and I called to see if the place was "urban" because some of the white people in my party wanted to know... I would fully expect somewhat of a terse response. Especially if some of my employees and customers were black.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Is asking if a bar is a gay bar homophobic?

No, but saying that attending a gay bar is against some people's religion could be seen as homophobic.

And not taking religious views into account when booking could cause that company that booked a heap of civil law suites.
Hence why they asked.

originally posted by: Boadicea
We all have the right to choose with whom we associate, whether in business or personal dealings, for whatever reason we choose.

I don't know if you're talking about the UK or the US, but in the US, business owners do NOT have the legal right to turn people away "for whatever reason" they choose.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
The organizer asked about it, as if it was a perfectly acceptable thing to say. It's really not.

It is when not asking could land your company in thousands of pounds of law suites from the pissed off religious people.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

3. In the US, he has every legal right to deny service based on a customer's perceived bigotry. He's not denying people BECAUSE of their religion. He's denying them because they are bigots (or he perceives them that way). That's legal in the US.

BH, you don't think that's a bit of playing the victim though?

To automatically assume it was bigotry, instead of an employer trying to do right by the wishes of their employees, which seems like the likely answer?

Then, make a whole big internet stink about it, without any real information. Cry about loosing money on the deal too, to uphold your 'values'. It just seems like somebody wanted some attention.

I find it ironic he doesn't name the company. You'd think if it would have been something to do with discrimination, that he would have. He's probably worried about being charged with libel, and I would be too.

You could RUIN the reputation of a good company like that.

It was a bad way to handle things.

It may be legal, but it wasn't right.

~Tenth

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Indeed, this is in the UK, so people need to brush up on the lay of the land before commenting, me thinks.

It is entirely against the law to discriminate against anyone based on their sex, sexual preference, colour/race, religion or even age (age restricted products such as Alcohol notwithstanding)

In the same way it would be illegal to deny service to a Gay couple, it is also entirely illegal to deny service because of perceived religious bigotry (it wasn't even confirmed, the first e-mail merely stated that some employees might be uncomfortable with a "gay bar" and was seeking confirmation so they could be advised of the facts)