Is your establishment a 'gay bar'? The right to refuse goes both ways.

Amusing story popped up today.

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With the end of the year quickly approaching, it's just about office holiday party season. But for one bar owner in London, the usually simple process of booking parties became an unexpected opportunity to stand up to homophobic potential customers. This past week, a unnamed major international car dealership contacted Alexander Proud, a British entrepreneur and the owner of north London's Proud Galleries, about hosting their Christmas party at one of his bars. But in a follow up email, they asked Proud if the establishment was a "gay bar." Take a look:

Furthermore;



After the heated debates I remember from early in the year on ATS whether business owners had the right to refuse service to gay customers, here is an example of the shoe being on the other foot.

So what do people think? Is this person right in refusing service to the business who have people who may not not 'feel comfortable' in a gay bar, or not?

a reply to: cuckooold
Unless I am reading this incorrectly they are not refusing service. It is the customer making his employees aware so they have a choice?

Good on the shop owner .. its about time people started giving the religious idiots a taste of their own medicine ..

It's his business, he can damn well do as he pleases with it. I think it's funny he was using "gay" as in merry or fun, not sexual preference.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: cuckooold
Unless I am reading this incorrectly they are not refusing service. It is the customer making his employees aware so they have a choice?

The first e-mail is from the organiser of the Party, requesting confirmation if the bar is a "gay bar" so he can inform those employees who might be concerned, he isn't requesting cancellation of anything although does ask if they have a separate seating area but this could be asked of anyone organising a large party as you want your staff to be together.

The second e-mail if from the Bar itself (although the name should have been a giveaway - "Proud"?) confirming they are a Gay bar and cancelling the booking without even asking the customer if that is what they wanted to do. In effect, the "gay bar" has refused service on the basis that this potential customer isn't gay or might have some members of the party who might be against homosexuality on religious grounds.

To me, it certainly seems like the Gay bar has discriminated against the booking based on sexuality and/or religion. If the shoe was on the other foot, we'd have a Court case.

originally posted by: DAVID64
It's his business, he can damn well do as he pleases with it. I think it's funny he was using "gay" as in merry or fun, not sexual preference.

No, he cannot do as "he damn well" pleases. It is against the law to discriminate on the grounds of sexuality, race, religion or age.

a reply to: stumason

Yup, I agree.

This man made a plublic shaming/publicity stunt with this.

That company wasn't being homophobic, they were actually being considerate to their religions employees. In a secular work place you should be told whether or not work events or social gatherings will occur in place that you may not want to frequent.

They weren't asking to cancel, they wanted information. And the guy first of all, didn't even bother to answer his phone?!

And then, without anything else, goes and posts it all over twitter, crying about being a victim of homophobia?

Good Lord.

As I gay man myself, it's this kind of nonsense that makes me laugh at the so called ' gay rights ' movement.

~Tenth

a reply to: stumason
Thanks second mail not showing when I looked earlier. Not sure if edit or is my phone.
I agree it looks like basic discrimination unless there are other emails in the trail we haven't seen.

I see nothing wrong with asking.

The employer could end up sued himself by his religious employees for not catering to them.

It a civil lawsuit cluster fK

Clearly Alex Proud is a massive idiot.

It's clearly discrimination, and the customer wasn't even asking about cancelling the booking, they just wanted to be able to inform their employees if that was the case. (although I can't imagine what major corporation would want to book their holiday party in a specifically 'gay' bar)

This isn't evidence of the shoe being on the other foot - it's evidence of a double standard. The bakery that didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding was forced to bake the cake and undergo sensitivity training.

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I believe the above ruling was wrong and was discriminatory against the baker, as he is being forced to take part in a ceremony that is against his beliefs. Considering that, why should a gay bar be able to refuse to do business with religious people and get away with it? It's not the fact that they turned down religious customers that bothers me, it's the hypocrisy of it. Why is there a double standard when it comes to gays? If you want to run a gay-only bar that's fine, but if you want to run a Christian-only bakery you're a bigot? I'm sorry but that's wrong, and if you agree with this kind of double-standard it's you who are the bigot.

Personally, I think a business owner should be able to pick and choose who they do business with - if a Christian baker only wants to bake cakes for heterosexual marriages, that's fine. If you want to run a gay-only bar, do what you will.

a reply to: cuckooold

iam not getting into the politics of the allegations [ for the reccord - i think the exchange is stupid beyond belief ( both sides ) ]

but who [ in thier right mind ] books thier staff end of year party without any idea what the venue is ???????????????????

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: cuckooold
Unless I am reading this incorrectly they are not refusing service. It is the customer making his employees aware so they have a choice?

The first e-mail is from the organiser of the Party, requesting confirmation if the bar is a "gay bar" so he can inform those employees who might be concerned, he isn't requesting cancellation of anything although does ask if they have a separate seating area but this could be asked of anyone organising a large party as you want your staff to be together.

The second e-mail if from the Bar itself (although the name should have been a giveaway - "Proud"?) confirming they are a Gay bar and cancelling the booking without even asking the customer if that is what they wanted to do. In effect, the "gay bar" has refused service on the basis that this potential customer isn't gay or might have some members of the party who might be against homosexuality on religious grounds.

To me, it certainly seems like the Gay bar has discriminated against the booking based on sexuality and/or religion. If the shoe was on the other foot, we'd have a Court case.

I agree with what you said. Yes, if he shoe was truly on the other foot the customer would have a court case.

However, IMHO, both the business owner and the customer have the right to do business or not do business with whomever they wish, so there shouldn't be a lawsuit. The dealership just should find somewhere else to have a party.

I have to agree with others here who say the bar owner was in the wrong. The person in the first email wasn't saying that they didn't want to book a gay bar; they were saying they just needed to make employees aware, in case they wanted to opt out. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

This is funny. The bar is in the wrong. Though nothing will come of it because of the double standard in society.

Though, the company really shouldn't make a big deal out of it anyways. If there are employees at the company that are offended by homosexuality, it would have been a bad idea to continue to have the party there even if the bar hadn't canceled the reservation.

originally posted by: crazyewok
I see nothing wrong with asking.

The employer could end up sued himself by his religious employees for not catering to them.

It a civil lawsuit cluster fK

I've a lawyer friend in the UK and she says the same thing, although she thinks that Americans are much more "sue happy" than Brits and I tend to agree with her.

It's also a double standard in that one will be championed as a stand against discrimination, while the other will be ... a stand against discrimination?

It's funny how two establishments can cancel/refuse service based on sexuality and the public is steered towards viewing that discrimination. On one hand it's right (and funny ) where on the other it's a poke in the eye against the evil bigots world wide.

I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, so my opinion doesn't matter much I suppose. No one should be forced into a contract in which they are uncomfortable. If the owner of Proud didn't want these asshats in his place because they would bring the mood down he was right to cancel, if a bakery doesn't want to make a cake they shouldn't have to.

The problem is, simple answers can never be simple.

in my opinion people should be able to pick who they do buisness wtih, especially if it's a privatley owned buisness.
I get it if i work for mcdonalds i need to put my ideologies aside and reppresent the company, but if i won the place, and don't want to cater to a specific group, well you can go get X in a million different shops.
Just like that bakery had the right to refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding, this establishment has the right to refuse a booking to a possibly anti gay crowd.
Everyone wins.

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: cuckooold

iam not getting into the politics of the allegations [ for the reccord - i think the exchange is stupid beyond belief ( both sides ) ]

but who [ in thier right mind ] books thier staff end of year party without any idea what the venue is ???????????????????

I too wondered at this, who indeed would have no idea of the venue?

I actually don't think the person booking the venue seemed homophobic at all, and the reaction of the owner of the bar seemed to be an overreaction. I wonder if this would be treated differently in the U.S than in the U.K? I believe our laws in Australia are probably closer to those of the U.K, but I'm not 100% sure.