$15 Min Wage Case Study Rant

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

So your claim is Australia has no high crime areas? The City of Hume begs to differ.

Musicians don't make minimum wage, so using them to prove a minimum wage point is ridiculous. Working 60 hours of min. wage where I live would allow him to own a 3 bedroom home, and assuming he had a wife also a min wage job they would be VERY well off, take family vacations, great Christmas presents, and that's at $8 an hour, and his wife only working 40 hours.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Subaeruginosa

So your claim is Australia has no high crime areas? The City of Hume begs to differ.

lol, I used drive though Broadmeadows every single day when I used to have a delivery job and lived in Melbourne. I used to eat lunch there, shop there and never once felt unsafe. Yeah, sure there’s places that have a higher crime rate than the cushy little eastern suburbs where I grew up, but it’s not the same as outright slums like parts of the US a notorious for.

I've traveled all over Australia and the closest thing you get to hardcore slums are the extremely isolated aboriginal towns in the far north west of Australia, which is most certainly a disgrace and hidden stain on our high quality of life status that the majority of us enjoy. But the 3rd world conditions of some of these very isolated aboriginal towns are a very complex issue, which has little to do with minimum wage or lack of welfare.

Musicians don't make minimum wage, so using them to prove a minimum wage point is ridiculous. Working 60 hours of min. wage where I live would allow him to own a 3 bedroom home, and assuming he had a wife also a min wage job they would be VERY well off, take family vacations, great Christmas presents, and that's at $8 an hour, and his wife only working 40 hours.

True, most musicians end up making less than minimum wage, Marshall Mathers first record (infinite) was a total flop and he ended up in debt, which is what would end up happening to most musicians that take the gamble of that career. It was just by chance he was recognized by a very respected person in the industry and was able to become the most famous rapper in the world with a net worth of 170 mil. Of course hard work hard and uncompromising motivation was involved. But the fact remains, he’d still be surviving on minimum wage if it weren't by pure chance. It’s a myth that people can get ahead and become successful without getting a free ride and striking it lucky from somewhere.

Anyway, I believe the minimum was more like 5.50 back then and it’s unreasonable to think he was able to get 60 hours all the time, notice I used the phrase “up to”.

But just for arguments sake, lets go by the current Detroit minimum of 8.15 and forget about bloody eminem, since no one knows exactly what his circumstances where. Just a generic family with 2 kids where the Dad is forced to work 60 hours a week and the mother 40 hours a week at minimum wage (Btw, they would have no kind of quality of life and it would create a very unhealthy family life, imo).

-60 hours a year is $25,428 (considering there’s a 2,000 a month tax free threshold as I've been told in one of these threads) that would make it a $24,000 net income. Still less than a 38 hour a week minimum wage @USD in Australia.
-40 hours a year is $16,952, assuming it’s tax-free? (Not much more than what a single person with no kids gets on the dole in Australia)

Total= $40,952 net combined yearly income.

-US average monthly mortgage repayments is $655/ or 7,860 Yearly
-Average cost of childcare $3582 to $18,773 yearly, so average $10,000 a year
-Average monthly electricity $200/ or $2,400 a year
-Yearly water $474
-Yearly gas $1200

Total= $21,934

Then weekly grocery bills with say 2 kids has got be at least $200
-Yearly grocery bills $10,400

Total basic living cost = $32,334

That Then leaves a total of $8,618 a year for clothes, phone bill, fuel, car repayments, medical bills, insurance payments and any extra curriculum activities or toys that children need to have any kind of quality of life.

So even if the Dad is working full time 7 days a week and the mothers working full time 5 days a week on minimum wage, they still probably wouldn't to be able to cut even.

Either way, it’s not the pretty little picture you’re trying to paint it as with relaxing yearly vacations and a large disposable income left for all those luxury items. Seems more like a hard depressing life to me, where even the most basic necessities are a struggle to provide.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
But just for arguments sake, lets go by the current Detroit minimum of 8.15 and forget about bloody eminem, since no one knows exactly what his circumstances where. Just a generic family with 2 kids where the Dad is forced to work 60 hours a week and the mother 40 hours a week at minimum wage (Btw, they would have no kind of quality of life and it would create a very unhealthy family life, imo).

So $815 per week. Got it.

-60 hours a year is $25,428 (considering there’s a 2,000 a month tax free threshold as I've been told in one of these threads) that would make it a $24,000 net income. Still less than a 38 hour a week minimum wage @USD in Australia.
-40 hours a year is $16,952, assuming it’s tax-free? (Not much more than what a single person with no kids gets on the dole in Australia)

Total= $40,952 net combined yearly income.

I'm with you!

-US average monthly mortgage repayments is $655/ or 7,860 Yearly
-Average cost of childcare $3582 to $18,773 yearly, so average $10,000 a year
-Average monthly electricity $200/ or $2,400 a year
-Yearly water $474
-Yearly gas $1200

Total= $21,934

Why are you using US averages and not Detroit averages? You can get a 3,000-4,000 SQFT home, 5 bedrooms, 3-4 bathrooms, for about 30-40k in Detroit. If you do not buy it outright it would cost about 100-200/month. We will say $3,000.

2317 Calvert St,
Detroit, MI 48206
6 beds-- baths4,572 sqft
FOR SALE
$11,900
EST. MORTGAGE
$44/mo

And no, that is not a fluke sale, I can show lots more just like it.
Childcare will be $7k-$10k, so we will say 10k. 13k total.
$4k for gas, water, electric, 17k total.

Then weekly grocery bills with say 2 kids has got be at least $200
-Yearly grocery bills $10,400
Total basic living cost = $32,334

So $27k total, not $32k.

That Then leaves a total of $8,618 a year for clothes, phone bill, fuel, car repayments, medical bills, insurance payments and any extra curriculum activities or toys that children need to have any kind of quality of life.

My phone bill is $35/month with unlimited text and data, so 2 phones, $840. So assuming $3k/yr for a good medical plan, and $1k for clothing, $1,500 for car/fuel, that leaves $7k / year left over for entertainment.

So even if the Dad is working full time 7 days a week and the mothers working full time 5 days a week on minimum wage, they still probably wouldn't to be able to cut even.

I just proved that wrong.

Either way, it’s not the pretty little picture you’re trying to paint it as with relaxing yearly vacations and a large disposable income left for all those luxury items. Seems more like a hard depressing life to me, where even the most basic necessities are a struggle to provide.

Except you are wrong. They have $7k/year for leisure, and can take a trip to Disneyworld every year if they want. The only way they would be hurting for money is if they were stupid and spent it gambling/drugs or the like. And that is minimum wage, with 2 children. Any moron can get a better than minimum wage job.

The reason people struggle is they do not live within their means. They spend $300/month on cell phone plans and $2,000/year on all the latest cell phones. They buy $5,000 chrome rims. They waste money non stop rather than using it wisely. Not everyone does that, but those who really feel the crunch do.

I make incredibly crap money, my wife is currently unable to work, I am going back to school again, I own a 3BR house, have gone on cruises, trip to the Philippines, and I have absolutely no debt. Just an FYI, I currently make less than if me and my wife both had min. wage jobs, and I am only guaranteed 32 hours per week (average 36 probably).

So yes, I paint a rosy picture because I am LIVING the rosy picture. I am not guessing it's possible, I am actually living it. I am not overflowing with money, but I am not really strapped either. I have 2 bedrooms I do not use and could easily rent out, I have no need to do so. Nor do I have a need to have a 2nd job, and I am the sole provider.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And no, that is not a fluke sale, I can show lots more just like it.
Childcare will be $7k-$10k, so we will say 10k. 13k total.
$4k for gas, water, electric, 17k total.

But where talking 2 kids aren't we (forgot to add that into my estimates), so they now lose there 7k a year for leisure and are probably now in the minus.

Anyway, it still doesn't change the fact that we're talking about a Dad working 20 hours over normal and a mother working full time, which people should only need to do to gain a higher quality of life, not to simply survive!

Any moron can get a better than minimum wage job.

What like a moron who has the ability to gain a 170 million dollar net worth, once given a chance to succeed.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

But where talking 2 kids aren't we (forgot to add that into my estimates), so they now lose there 7k a year for leisure and are probably now in the minus.

I was including 2 kids into everything. I make LESS than 2 people working min. wage. I have a 3 bedroom house in a nice area. My wife does not work. Cruises, 2 week trip to the Philippines, planning a trip to Disneyworld and a Cruise as we speak. I have no debt. I am not guessing, I am living proof of what I say.

Anyway, it still doesn't change the fact that we're talking about a Dad working 20 hours over normal and a mother working full time, which people should only need to do to gain a higher quality of life, not to simply survive!

It does not change the fact that we are talking MIN WAGE which basically NO ONE works and is almost the exclusive domain of middle class children. The parent working min. wage shifts is almost non-existant, and wtf are you doing having 2 kids you can't afford to begin with. That's part of the problem with this world, people expect others to clean up their messes and when they screw up it's not their fault and life is tough so someone needs to bail them out. Want to know why I don't have kids, I am not financially stable enough yet. When I am, I will have them.

What like a moron who has the ability to gain a 170 million dollar net worth, once given a chance to succeed.

So he did not stay working minimum wage, thanks for proving my point. In fact, he NEVER worked minimum wage, as I already pointed out and you agreed.

Any moron can get a job paying more than min. wage.

Half of min. wage workers are 25 or younger.
Only 3% of all workers over 25 make minimum wage. So yes, only someone who has a true problem is in the bottom 3% their whole life.
Only 2% of all min. wage workers are married. So the odds 2 married people are both making minimum wage is so unlikely it's not worth talking about.
www.bls.gov...
I believe it's about 10% of all min. wage workers live in a house where the income is OVER $100k/year.

razor is right. i have been saying it too.
money management.
you dont need the newest iphone and a huge data plan.
you dont need to be into a car payment for 300 bones a month for 60-72 months.
people just go out and spend hand over fist when they dont make the money to support it...
then they complain about the rent and the cost of food.
i dont understand it.

i have a 3 bedroom house.
own my car.
my wife does not work. i support the 3 of us and will be paying child support till june of next year.

people can do it if they manage their money

Just to bring it home ...

That leaves only about 1.1 percent of all workers over 25 and 0.8 percent of all Americans over 25 earning the minimum wage.

www.forbes.com...

Even min. wage can earn a decent living, and your thinking all these people make min. wage is quite simply false. Almost no one does, the largest category are teenagers, who for the most part have almost none of those expenses.

a reply to: Grovit

Very true. That doesn't mean looking at the issue is bad, but the lie that people can not live is just that, a lie. I would love more money, and expect me and my wife's combined income in a few years to be about $200-$250k. If we spent the rest of our lives on minimum wage we would live just fine though, have a nice house, in a very nice, safe area, have cars, food, medical insurance, cell phones, AND take vacations every single year.

We have NEVER had an income higher than two people making minimum wage at 40 hours each. We have no debt.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

i do quite a bit better than minimum but i could make it on minimum with the wife working as well.
i dont get why people think they cant.
the arguments about rent and this and that is always the extreme high side.

people very often do not live within their means.
i dont have any debt either.
only payments going out are bills.

i use a $15 dollar prepaid flip from att. cost me around 15 a month...
then you have others that are getting the new iphone from sprint at 18 a month for 2 years plus the 70 a month for their data plan or whatever. its ridiculous.
so 88 or so a month or 15?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

that is but one example

a reply to: Grovit

I currently make a little less than double minimum. After college I had a six figure job lined up but moved for a girl I thought I would marry, state I moved to is horrible for my degree and I make about 1/3 what I would have made had we stayed.

We broke up and met the girl I would marry. I have made crap money the entire time because I moved right after college. My wife has never worked, she had a job for $60k/year but had to pass it up to be with me, so she does not work, hopefully in the next 6 months she will be. Once I finish my last degree (which will put me at 5 degrees) in a few years I will be making big money anywhere in the world I want to live, I learned my lesson with my last degree that was only good in several states.

The point is that I have NEVER made good money, I bought a 3 BR house by myself, in a nice quiet area, close to the city, I outright paid cash for my car, I take vacations, and I have zero debt outside my house payment, and my house is worth about $60k more than my mortgage.

originally posted by: Divin3F3nrus
a reply to: sirlancelot

Im not even going to read what anybody else has posted and tell you what you are mssing. The assumption that the full labor cost would be transferred onto the customer is where you go wrong. When the minimum wage is raised to $15/hr a company changed how it calculated its profit in a way. Companies like to have a margin where they make a percentage of whatever they spend. Let's say for example that theytry to make 50% of what they spend. That means that for every dollar they spend they want to pull in 1.50. IF you keep the same margin and increase the wages then yes the cost will be transferred, however economists agree that if everybody is paid more that the companies will do more business. This means that they could pull in more money with more sales and a lower margin. In order for this to work we would need to regulate how high the margins can be for a campany to insure that the margins stay low and we keep the dollar from being inflated.

If you are like I was and just barely make enough to survive you end up saving everything you can to make a better life for yourself. If you are like me now and make an excess then you spend your money on luxuries while still being able to save for the future. If we all got paid more we would spend more, and companies would still make a large profit becuase of the VOLUME they would be dealing in.

Ok when you mentioned regulate profit thats where this will fail. Corporations will always do anything and everything to make as much profit as possible. My other problem is the word "regualte" in america means govt involvement and the govt cant even regualte themselves let alone enforce all companies to limit their profits.

a reply to: sirlancelot

I agree. In my country it does mean the government comes into play and they cannot be trusted. Period. Corporations will also do anything to skirt the standards. I have no clue how we would enforce this other than arming every single citizen and making it legal to perform vigilante justice when there is evidence of this kind of infraction.

I like the idea of vigilante justice in general.