Personal Responsability and drug addiction...

a reply to: onequestion



I have never been in AA, I am not totally familiar with their methods. I also have never had a real drug or alcohol problem, though I have been so extremely vigilant on them that I have worried unecessarily before. I am very attached to my sense of self control, and get concerned easily. When I noticed I enjoyed it when I drank a couple glasses of wine, I started worrying that I might be a potential alcoholic- though I only had a couple glasses of wine maybe once a week, or less!

So I quit drinking at all for a while, now I will allow myself a glass because I observed that I felt no desire for it if I refrained. But my concern for keeping control over myself and my behavior (as neurotic as that may be) is probably what has kept me from getting too deep into most addictions. Cigarettes too, I quit as soon as I started to feel that I was becoming a slave to them- I can't stand the feeling of having anything, (or anyone) dominating my will.

But something I realize is that once something has gotten a deep enough grip on you, sometimes you just need some help overcoming it. Sometimes all your internal motivation can't do it.

That's when we start expressing out loud our intents- which create expectations on the parts of others, for our behavior.
It is like sharing your personal power, or enlisting the aid of others, which I am guessing AA is all about?

I would guess that it is like most things in life- some recognition that the pressure we subsequently receive from our peers is simply a manifestation of our own conscience, of goals we our self set. Keeping in mind that they are not against you, and it is not you against them, and this is shared effort- not giving it away to them.

Because I observe that those who have the habit of giving power away to others completely end up only playing out a "will versus body" type of conflict, in which they become the drives and appetites of the body, while everyone else is the will, the cruel super ego, and it doesn't get better.

Even if you need to get help and share the power, there is probably a stage in which you must take it back and become autonomous again?

I had a moment when I had my first horse, in which I had been hurt many times, things were out of control with my horse, (who was young and I was inexperienced) and I had become so frightened that I barely had the will to get back in the saddle, much less be a confident leader. I was reduced to blubbering tears with one foot in the stirrup and the other unable to break contact with the ground.

I have never experienced such a lack of courage and motivation! I had to get a friend to help me, which consisted of basically standing there yelling at me. The only way I was able to accept that was the knowledge that we agreed- I wanted him to do that, he was acting out my intents and my inner authority, and it was a loan. I had to take it back later, so that I integrated every bit of my authority to take my position as dominant with my horse. It was very important that I not give it away and forget whose the real boss of me.

This has nothing to do with drugs but my husband is in recovery for porn addiction. Go ahead, laugh. It has literally destroyed me in every way...he relapsed a week ago and I found out last night and was up until 130 puking and crying. Im a stay at home mom, we have a 15 mo old son and I'm 25 weeks pregnant. And while I'm fine most of the time, I find it harder and harder to keep my s*** together. Every time he relapses it feels like my heart is ripped from my chest. Especially when I gave him every opportunity to come to bed with me, he maybe did once a month. It was empty and was really only for him. I know that his addiction was caused by emotional trauma. His dad cheated on his mom when he was 3 has had 4 wives and cheated on all but one of them. When he was 13, visiting his dad in Arizona, he was in his dads barbur shop which was very "manly" he was reading gameinformer and his dad replaced it with a playboy mag. Mind you, by 10 he has already found his dads stash and had his innocence taken from him. I was molested at 10 by my brothers friend and this hurts worse than the 7 years I held it in and the 3 years it took to forgive him. I have never felt more betrayed, unattractive and violated in my entire life. I am showing signs of PTSD and have has anxiety attacks, jumping over a leaf hitting the ground, and having intrusive thoughts of him getting off to other women. Addiction, no matter what it is, will break up families at some point or another. I am worried that his SA meetings are telling him that he has no power over this and that giving it to God he will change. We are believers is God and unless he takes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his actions, God will not help him. Prayer and faith without works is dead. I don't care what anyone says, porn is terrible. It objectifies men and women, and causes men (mainly) to have unrealistic expectations for how their woman should act in the bedroom. No one should ever have to go through what I am right now, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. My heart is dust...

great post OP, i love how you put it into perspective. Evilchimp...your ways of dealing are great as well. I never believed in AA or NA as they take on a religious view and that is not for me. I have never been an addict but yes i do like to party once in a while. I work hard for a living and when i want to treat myself i do.

originally posted by: soberlife

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Tangerine
I think it says "was powerless." Meaning powerless until one accepts there is a problem.

Don't think it says exactly "hand the problem over" either.

I could be wrong, I haven't been there. Or maybe it's a matter of interpretation.

When I attended my first meeting, I looked at the wall and there was a poster that contained the 12 steps. I though to myself - How is this going to help me? I have bigger problems I need to deal with first, such as getting a job, finding a place to live (I was homeless), etc. When I began the process it seemed as though I was giving up in life, I was to throw all my conceptions of what living was. "Giving in." Keep in mind that these steps are fully explained in 164 pages of literature. In that literature there is a part that says "God is everything, or God is nothing, what was our choice to be?" That was the building block upon which I built a pantheism belief system. I found the "power" within myself.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

I had this ego-centric belief that others never knew what was right for me. I always had to come to my own conclusions. It wasn't until I admitted this, that I became willing to listen to others. Then I could begin to listen to the combined wisdom of those that have successfully beat addiction.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

I told another person every thing I have ever done that has harmed others. Things that could potentially put me in prison. I had to trust the process. As a result of exposing myself, and becoming completely honest with myself, a burden was lifted. The person I shared this information with was my "sponsor" (which is a person that has previously worked the 12 steps, and helps others.) He helped expose the parts of my "victimized" thinking, and helped show me that I had a part of nearly every negative occurrence in my life. I am the one that got the ball rolling. I then found peace in the Universe.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I had a notebook with a list of names of people who I have harmed in my life, throughout my alcohol and drug addiction. There was much fear that came with this process. I approached people I have held much anger for and I told them "I have made many mistakes in my life, and harmed many people. If I have ever caused you any trouble, I regret the decisions I have made. Is there anything I can do to make it up to you?" - notice how there's no justifications there. There is no "I did this - because you..." I faced my fears, I took responsibility. This has changed the way I look at life, and deal with other people. I was released from the bondage of my resentments.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

See below. This is a copy/paste directly from the literature. It's about self-improvement and is self-explanatory.

“When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others."

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

I pray to the Universe, I believe we are all connected. I receive relief, and a feeling of definite direction. I find peace with this.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I have had an awakening as a result of this program. Not the literature (which plaid a part), but the interaction with other people. I was homeless, hopeless, addicted to alcohol, opiates, and amphetamines. I have raised above where I was before. I have a new understanding of life, which has a direct result on how I live my daily life. I have regained my confidence, my family, my life. I have watched others regain their families, their happiness. I have also watched many people die. I have been sober since July of 2012. To others, it's easy to ridicule the program with judgments. Because to them, it's just a concept of reality. Please understand that for me, and for many others, this program is a method of survival.

I'm glad it worked out for you but that doesn't mean it's not religion. It is. The fact that you thought of it as Pantheism doesn't change that. Apparently, AA does help a very small percentage of people stop drinking. I just think that people should know, going in, that it's religion and make a fully informed choice as to whether to become involved in it. I have heard stories of people who have been badgered, belittled, and bullied at AA meetings for refusing to treat it like a religion. I've heard stories about AA meetings that are virtual Christian prayer meetings. That's fine, if that's what people want, but no court should be able to order people to participate in a religious practice.

I've been around for more than a half century. I've been exposed to drugs and alcohol for nearly all of it. I've suffered under the thumb of alcoholics, I participated in drug use, I overused alcohol myself. It's all a part of who I am, what I've become, what I will be. If i could not take the 'edge' off of my workday with something; I would surely not be able to muster the strength to go back and continue the same 'banging head against wall' servitude that compromises my day. Being a part of the 'corporate world' we are now existing in, is fundamentally killing us. We serve as pawns by choice as we are addicted to eating, surviving, and making sure our immediate families are as well as can be expected. That being said...
I have the control mechanism within to choose whether to control my actions. CHOOSE is the key word here. In the past, I chose to use drugs, literally. There is a continual conversation going on in my head, every day, every hour, every minute, I make choices. I weigh the benefits and outcomes, and after consideration, I make a choice. Sometimes...I choose poorly. The only excuse I can offer is that I am human and I'm capable of bad decisions. Nothing more. Alcoholism is a choice, as is drug dependence. People choose to throw caution to the wind, and give in to the temptation. Alcoholism and addiction follow as a matter of course, but they only follow, because of that initial choice to give in, to let go, to say "duck it, I give up."
The essential problem is not that people have been duped, and are now at the mercy of an addiction. The problem is that people are WILLING to be the puppets of alcoholism or addiction. Whether it is because of a terrible life situation or lack of a better future, (insert any excuse you wish) some people are weak. Perpetual or temporary, weakness is the catalyst in the decision to move to the area of submission to an addictive substance.

a reply to: Tangerine

That's fine, if that's what people want, but no court should be able to order people to participate in a religious practice.

In most jurisdictions, they don't.

Under these alternative sentencing programs, offenders are usually given several program options they can complete instead of going to jail.

In most states, the court itself does not send people directly to Alcoholics Anonymous. Typically, you are first sent to a probation officer, counselor or a caseworker who will oversee your participation in the alternative sentencing program.

alcoholism.about.com...

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Tangerine

That's fine, if that's what people want, but no court should be able to order people to participate in a religious practice.

In most jurisdictions, they don't.

Under these alternative sentencing programs, offenders are usually given several program options they can complete instead of going to jail.

In most states, the court itself does not send people directly to Alcoholics Anonymous. Typically, you are first sent to a probation officer, counselor or a caseworker who will oversee your participation in the alternative sentencing program.

alcoholism.about.com...

OK, thanks for the clarification. Nevertheless, these are government programs of one sort or another and should not be involved in promoting religion in any form.

originally posted by: onequestion
Ok let me start by saying i do not care about drugs that is not the point of the thread, the point of the thread is personal responsibility so please do everyone a favor and do not talk about drugs please, thanks.

Now i already know youll see me talking crap about the personal responsibility clingers on ATS who use that at as an end all be all answer to the economy, however in this thread youll see how i feel about its true meaning and how it should be getting used, in this instance.

Now ive been dealing with drug and alcohol problems since i was a child, and i had my own problems with alcohol as an adult. Something ive learned throughout this paradigm is that you cannot blame the alcohol if you become a bad person or a crazy person on the alcohol. You cant sit down and say, "The alcohol turns me into a bad person". Well, in my opinion, no it doesnt. For sure, you black out, make bad choices and become an addict and all of it. Yea those things happen when your on to much alcohol. Now here is where responsibility comes into to the picture. The problem is not that the alcohol makes you crazy or stupid or annoying or angry, its that you drink to much and lose control of yourself.

I apply this way of thinking to all drugs across the board, even coffee. I get it that some drugs are more addictive then others but that still falls into the same way of thinking it doesnt matter. I know people start stealing and doing this and that when they are on dope but they dont when they arent, i get it, i get that entire point. That doesnt change anything. The fact is you allow those things to control you. You have to say no, you have to not be willing to lose control.

This is a bigger issue then just responsability too. Theres more to it. There is a power play in this. It has to do with you owning and taking control of this part of yourself. You need to conquer this. You have be willing to not relinquish control you have to be forceful with yourself, like a master.

These principles are not taught in AA in this same way that im telling you about them now. They are taught different. They are taught to give up power, they are taught to be victims and that they have no control over this and this is absolutely not true its a complete and total lie.

O man, I'm not going to touch this, but please do some research before you spew anymore of this victim blaming bull#. We have worked so hard in the medical/scientific community to stomp out this ignorant and judgmental veiwpoint, but some folks just don't care to live in reality. Would you create a post blaming cancer patients for having brain tumors? Because that's the medical equivalent here, addiction is a disease, not a character flaw.

originally posted by: dondrews
I've been around for more than a half century. I've been exposed to drugs and alcohol for nearly all of it. I've suffered under the thumb of alcoholics, I participated in drug use, I overused alcohol myself. It's all a part of who I am, what I've become, what I will be. If i could not take the 'edge' off of my workday with something; I would surely not be able to muster the strength to go back and continue the same 'banging head against wall' servitude that compromises my day. Being a part of the 'corporate world' we are now existing in, is fundamentally killing us. We serve as pawns by choice as we are addicted to eating, surviving, and making sure our immediate families are as well as can be expected. That being said...
I have the control mechanism within to choose whether to control my actions. CHOOSE is the key word here. In the past, I chose to use drugs, literally. There is a continual conversation going on in my head, every day, every hour, every minute, I make choices. I weigh the benefits and outcomes, and after consideration, I make a choice. Sometimes...I choose poorly. The only excuse I can offer is that I am human and I'm capable of bad decisions. Nothing more. Alcoholism is a choice, as is drug dependence. People choose to throw caution to the wind, and give in to the temptation. Alcoholism and addiction follow as a matter of course, but they only follow, because of that initial choice to give in, to let go, to say "duck it, I give up."
The essential problem is not that people have been duped, and are now at the mercy of an addiction. The problem is that people are WILLING to be the puppets of alcoholism or addiction. Whether it is because of a terrible life situation or lack of a better future, (insert any excuse you wish) some people are weak. Perpetual or temporary, weakness is the catalyst in the decision to move to the area of submission to an addictive substance.

Every shred of research of research done on addiction in the past 30 years flat out contradicts what you're saying. You are ignorant on this topic, and this is why people are afraid to get help. Addiction is a choice in the same way that anorexia or schizophrenia is a choice... and that is to say absolutely not a choice at all. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

And WEAKNESS?
Many things correlate with addiction, family history of substance dependance, unnecessary risk taking, genetic predisposition, other mental health issues (particularly ADHD), depression/anxiety, and even age of first substance use (inverse relationship of course). WEAKNESS is not one of them, and you disgust me for suggesting this without having a clue as to the reality of the situation.

originally posted by: dr1234

originally posted by: dondrews
I've been around for more than a half century. I've been exposed to drugs and alcohol for nearly all of it. I've suffered under the thumb of alcoholics, I participated in drug use, I overused alcohol myself. It's all a part of who I am, what I've become, what I will be. If i could not take the 'edge' off of my workday with something; I would surely not be able to muster the strength to go back and continue the same 'banging head against wall' servitude that compromises my day. Being a part of the 'corporate world' we are now existing in, is fundamentally killing us. We serve as pawns by choice as we are addicted to eating, surviving, and making sure our immediate families are as well as can be expected. That being said...
I have the control mechanism within to choose whether to control my actions. CHOOSE is the key word here. In the past, I chose to use drugs, literally. There is a continual conversation going on in my head, every day, every hour, every minute, I make choices. I weigh the benefits and outcomes, and after consideration, I make a choice. Sometimes...I choose poorly. The only excuse I can offer is that I am human and I'm capable of bad decisions. Nothing more. Alcoholism is a choice, as is drug dependence. People choose to throw caution to the wind, and give in to the temptation. Alcoholism and addiction follow as a matter of course, but they only follow, because of that initial choice to give in, to let go, to say "duck it, I give up."
The essential problem is not that people have been duped, and are now at the mercy of an addiction. The problem is that people are WILLING to be the puppets of alcoholism or addiction. Whether it is because of a terrible life situation or lack of a better future, (insert any excuse you wish) some people are weak. Perpetual or temporary, weakness is the catalyst in the decision to move to the area of submission to an addictive substance.

Every shred of research of research done on addiction in the past 30 years flat out contradicts what you're saying. You are ignorant on this topic, and this is why people are afraid to get help. Addiction is a choice in the same way that anorexia or schizophrenia is a choice... and that is to say absolutely not a choice at all. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

And WEAKNESS?
Many things correlate with addiction, family history of substance dependance, unnecessary risk taking, genetic predisposition, other mental health issues (particularly ADHD), depression/anxiety, and even age of first substance use (inverse relationship of course). WEAKNESS is not one of them, and you disgust me for suggesting this without having a clue as to the reality of the situation.

If addicts are unable to control their addiction and have other associated problems such as unnecessary risk taking,mental health issues, etc., shouldn't they be placed under the control of other, responsible persons? If not, why not? As we all know, the behavior of addicts often negatively affects and sometimes jeopardizes the lives of others.

originally posted by: TheNamesZeppelin
This has nothing to do with drugs but my husband is in recovery for porn addiction. Go ahead, laugh. It has literally destroyed me in every way...he relapsed a week ago and I found out last night and was up until 130 puking and crying. Im a stay at home mom, we have a 15 mo old son and I'm 25 weeks pregnant. And while I'm fine most of the time, I find it harder and harder to keep my s*** together. Every time he relapses it feels like my heart is ripped from my chest. Especially when I gave him every opportunity to come to bed with me, he maybe did once a month. It was empty and was really only for him. I know that his addiction was caused by emotional trauma. His dad cheated on his mom when he was 3 has had 4 wives and cheated on all but one of them. When he was 13, visiting his dad in Arizona, he was in his dads barbur shop which was very "manly" he was reading gameinformer and his dad replaced it with a playboy mag. Mind you, by 10 he has already found his dads stash and had his innocence taken from him. I was molested at 10 by my brothers friend and this hurts worse than the 7 years I held it in and the 3 years it took to forgive him. I have never felt more betrayed, unattractive and violated in my entire life. I am showing signs of PTSD and have has anxiety attacks, jumping over a leaf hitting the ground, and having intrusive thoughts of him getting off to other women. Addiction, no matter what it is, will break up families at some point or another. I am worried that his SA meetings are telling him that he has no power over this and that giving it to God he will change. We are believers is God and unless he takes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his actions, God will not help him. Prayer and faith without works is dead. I don't care what anyone says, porn is terrible. It objectifies men and women, and causes men (mainly) to have unrealistic expectations for how their woman should act in the bedroom. No one should ever have to go through what I am right now, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. My heart is dust...

I'm sorry you've had to experience this. It seems like you have given him every reasonable chance. Perhaps it's time you place your own needs and the needs of your child and soon-to-be child first and do that which you already know you need to do: take steps to terminate a very unhealthy relationship and go on with your life. Otherwise, you will likely spend the rest of your time with him waiting for the next "relapse" and, in the end, terminate the relationship anyway. Get the misery behind you. Good luck.