Doubts regarding abductions

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DJW001

Not only are you misinterpreting the OP, but you fail to understand where the alien abduction myth comes from. Alien abduction stories are nearly always the result of "recovered memories."

Unless others are involved. You have thoroughly debunked every case have you?

Travis Walton hid from the limelight and offers of money for decades. He and his fellow logging buddies tried to forget about it, not ride the gravy train.

You need to read about the entire case for yourself. Walton's brother Duane and friend Mike Rogers did media interviews before Travis was even "found". His brother Duane claimed both had seen UFOs previously and wasn't worried for his brothers life. The National Enquirer had a $100,000 prize for proof of extra-terrestrial visitation and a $5,000 prize for the best UFO story of the year. They received $5,000 for telling their story to the Enquirer. Travis received $2,500 while his friends split the remaining $2,500. By the way, $2,500 is equivalent to roughly $10,000 today. Here's a news photograph at the time of the limelight/money hiding Walton and his friends showing off their checks:


He did countless interviews and also wrote a book in 1978 entitled "The Walton Experience" which was later re-released with updated information as "Fire In The Sky" to help promote the movie of the same name. The movie went on to gross almost 20 million dollars. Who knows if Walton had a back end cut of that or not. He certainly received a good amount for the rights of his story to made into a movie. He's been active on the UFO lecture circuit for decades. Go HERE to see his recent lecture schedule. This is hardly a man that has hidden from the limelight or from receiving money from this incident. He's not only is riding the gravy train, he's been the conductor from the beginning throughout 39 years. Your claim of Walton hiding from publicity adds to the credibility of his story is wrong. The same is said of Betty and Barney Hill when in fact they gave a lecture about their incident to their church members. I guess they did this thinking the story would never get out?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Tangerine

How do we know there's a "they" and that they're not from here? There are all sorts of possibilities.

Not for me.

What I saw one night wasn't from here. Its a choice I had to make… Either deny it or admit it.

What does your conclusion have to do with reality? it was merely your impression and as valid, or not, as anyone else's impression. I am not suggesting that you didn't have a strange experience, by the way.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Tangerine

How could you possibly know the range of "spirit" appearances and what do you mean by "spirit kind"?

Just say I don't believe you. its okay, I can take it.

I do't really feel like trying to convince a skeptic. I don't have any proof anyway.

Suffice to say I have had both encounters. Spirits are not "craft" is about as simple as I can port it. Quite easy in fact to tell the difference.

You're assuming that nothing but the "spaceships" of extraterrestrials can take the form of craft. We simply don't know that for a fact.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Tangerine

I don't see how the "technical aspects" of the case make it more compelling. Anyone who has watched TV, gone to the movies, or been exposed to technology could have come up with that stuff.

Not back in 1975.

Here bee your own skeptic… there are plenty of both sides to every case.

Link

Here is a list of Sci-Fi movies from the 1970s including a number with a theme of travel to outer space. This doesn't even include the plethora of pulp magazine articles about the topic.

www.imdb.com...

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

You need to read about the entire case for yourself.

I provided the link you are quoting from. Bottom of the last page. At least give me that credit. Instead of shoveling mud without a link.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The entire case? You mean including all the bribes and intent to discredit since it happened? Everything that happened since that night has been a media circus.

But none of it smacks of cover up, lol. Not by the main stream Media.

a reply to: Tangerine

What does your conclusion have to do with reality?

You're right, it has nothing to do with your version of reality.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Tangerine

What does your conclusion have to do with reality?

You're right, it has nothing to do with your version of reality.

My point is that no one knows what reality is or if there even is such a thing. If it gives you comfort to believe that you know what it is, go for it.

Alas, claims mean nothing until they can be proved via testable evidence.

Dunno if you have watched the clips, I kinda doubt it, but I didnt come away thinking they lied. Sometimes you arent going to have all the facts, you can still examine what is available and try to use some critical thinking skills to see if you see flaws. What if someone gave you a million dollars to bet one way or another on these cases? I imagine you would take a little more time to examine them carefully.

"At this point, there isn't an iota of testable evidence proving that aliens exist, that they pilot craft"

I disagree completely with this point, there is tons of testable data that shows aliens exist, much of it on this very site. Some people arent going to believe until they have clear pictures, but if you take in all the facts, its clear there are alien craft.

some of the best cases
Westall Australia
JAL 1628 flight
Tehran military incident
Belgium Wave
Trumbull OH police chase

"and that they abduct people."

I dont think the abduction stories are even close to the evidence of ufos in general, still intesting stuff, if you actually watch the accounts, I think you might even come away saying maybe...

"These stories are extremely similar to ancient stories about fairies abducting humans, doing things to them, and returning them. Only the technology in the stories has changed. Do you believe that fairies abduct people or would you require testable evidence proving it before you would accept it as fact?"

Afraid I am not familiar with these stories, and like you, I dont give them a second thought. But the nice thing about the destination america story is it lets us meet the actual witness. You gauge the person's intelligence, their demeanor, and their honesty. I wouldnt bet a whole bunch of money it really happened to them, but I do lean that way.

a reply to: intrptr

I provided the link you are quoting from. Bottom of the last page. At least give me that credit. Instead of shoveling mud without a link.

I'm quoting from different sources. If you read the article you linked, how can you say "Travis Walton hid from the limelight and offers of money for decades. He and his fellow logging buddies tried to forget about it, not ride the gravy train"? When in fact they did do interviews and profited from the story from the start. A month after the incident, they sell their story to the National Enquirer and are photographed with their checks which is published in the paper. How exactly is that hiding from the limelight and offers for money?

The entire case? You mean including all the bribes and intent to discredit since it happened? Everything that happened since that night has been a media circus.

I mean the entire case rather than from biased sensationalized sources. You seem to fall into the same trap that many believers do. To accept the story at face value with no in-depth research. You've shown that with your comment about Walton and his buddies avoiding the spotlight. No weighing of evidence or lack thereof. Just accept the exciting UFO abduction story presented to you.

But none of it smacks of cover up, lol. Not by the main stream Media.

Cover ups, conspiracies, government lies, etc. etc. etc... The typical believer run-to answer. Would Walton failing the first polygraph test fit into a cover up too?

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
Alas, claims mean nothing until they can be proved via testable evidence.


"At this point, there isn't an iota of testable evidence proving that aliens exist, that they pilot craft"

I disagree completely with this point, there is tons of testable data that shows aliens exist, much of it on this very site. Some people arent going to believe until they have clear pictures, but if you take in all the facts, its clear there are alien craft.

Tons of testable data? What data and exactly how has it been tested?

originally posted by: Emma3

1 - If someone has a dream about being put back home from a (triangular) spaceship, do you think that means something or was it just a random dream?

I don't think I can apply any judgement upon only that information. There would have to be more info regarding the context- was this the first time or had it happened many times? Did anyone else witness or experience the same thing at the same time? (meaning anyone else in the same house) What was the nature of the experience? Was it typical of dreams, or was it more "real like"?
I don't see how one person can make such a judgement upon another persons experience, ultimately.

2 - How often do abductees remember their abductions and how much of it do they remember?

There are such varied experiences! It seems to me that the ones that became most known in the media have been ones remembered mostly through hypnosis- because it was the people who performed the hypnosis or treatment that brought it to the public attention. Most of the "abductees" I have met that had clear memories of the experiences with no hypnosis chose to remain quiet about it. The more detailed the experiences, the less reason there is to go to a professional, when no other professional is involved, they have no reason to want anyone else to know about it!

Nobody wants to be treated as a freak, faced with ridicule, and mocked for an experience that was very troubling (if not physically, then psychologically- even the most pleasant experience of this sort still upsets terribly ones perception of reality, which is traumatizing).

It is usually people who did not have the experience that take someones experience to the media in one way or another, and convince them to share it, with the idea that "the world needs to know" and "others like you need to know they are not alone". Though I suspect in some of those cases, it is the shrink, researcher, or whatever, that really wants the exposure.

I found that the institute of Dr. John Mack was very professional about it and made no attempt to expose our case or lead our thinking in any way. They provided a source of pretty neutral receptive support.

3 - Do the memories feel like real memories or more like a dream type of thing?

In my case, much of it was very real-like- I mean so much that if I were to just judge the experience as a dream or hallucination, that would entail that any experience I have during any moment of the day might be a dream or hallucination. That was the "traumatizing" part of it- which brought me to all sorts of existential angst. I WANTED to push it aside as mental illness of some sort, or a flight of imagination... that would have made it all okay. But doing so meant I had to then question everything else- did anything I remember in life actually happen? Is all of this just a big dream or hallucination then? Because much of this was experienced with others in my family, having the confirmation of others is meaningless then too- even if ten other people experienced something with me, that doesn't have any bearing on the reality of the event!

In some of the cases, all sensual memory was extremely clear, and our shared experience was identical- like one night in our car, with my husband and I- both of us remember quite clearly coming upon a blinding light in front of the car, and the conversation we had about what it could possibly be.
Then those clear memories move to "skip" in the internal film- the next thing we knew, we were far from the place, driving forward and both in an altered mental state. Something like being drugged, which then made all sensual memory a bit unreliable. So the experiences can sometimes move from a very lucid and vivid quality, to less, in a split second, which makes the whole thing rather complicated.

But after that period, when I was able to start to trying to research other peoples experiences of the same type, I was always very frustrated by the foggy vagueness that the experiences were depicted as- mine were not like that, and I kept feeling that was just done to discredit the experience as a whole. But perhaps for some people, it was very dreamlike.
But since then, as different abductees and I have found each other, I know that for many of us, there was nothing foggy and vague about it.

a reply to: Bluesma

I believe you had a very traumatic experience but what makes you absolutely conclude (if you do) that you were abducted by aliens? Even if you perceived that which you took to be aliens, how can you be certain that's what really happened and not something else? I am in no way suggesting that you made this up or are mentally ill. I am simply suggesting the possibility that some sort of, for lack of a better word, strange experience may have been misinterpreted. The misinterpretation could have been caused by the experience being so bizarre the mind interpreted it as an alien abduction or the notion of an alien abduction was induced when it did not actually occur.

You're probably aware that fairy abduction stories from long ago contain many similar components. This may suggest that an event of unknown type causes the experiencer to interpret it in culturally understood terms.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: Bluesma

I believe you had a very traumatic experience but what makes you absolutely conclude (if you do) that you were abducted by aliens?

I don't. When I reference these events, I always refer to it as "abduction type experiences"- to communicate the general nature as most people understand that to refer to, of an experience. I make no claims about the objective reality of them.

I would have no problem with you calling me mentally ill- coming from a family of shrinks, I view us all as having some measure of mental illness or disbalance- it is what makes us individuals. It is all on a spectrum.

There are so many possible explanations that I cannot make any judgement upon it that I can claim belief in.

I could have been suffering from a form of Paris Syndrome, Jerusalem syndrome, or other psychosis provoked by extreme culture shock and isolation.

I could have been going through a state of "ego death" provoked by my situation at the time, a sort of spiritual passage, as Carl Jung described, in which ones basic conditioned perimeters of reality fall down, resulting in chaotic perception, before a sort of "conscious re-building" of the ego begins.

This could have spread to those around me in a "collective hallucination" type of dynamic.

There could be some truth to Jungs perception of achetypes and the collective subconscious, in which archetypes can take on almost a life of their own, spreading through human collectives, which blurs the lines between real and not real. If an imaginary entity can travel from one individual psychology to another, and influence the experiences and perception of that individual, regardless of their will and beliefs, then how does that make it less meaningful than a physical entity?
(this is relevant in the issue of other past forms of entities like fairies and such. The archetypes might change form for us with time, but remain the same conceptions, and have the same power).

There could be human influence here such as military eperimentation, which uses forms of mental influence- they have the technology to provoke false memories and effect the brain and nervous system. Later I found that both my maternal and paternal grandfathers were involved in experiments at the Los Alamos lab in New Mexico, and there is some indication of profound effects upon them when they left it. At that time, much research was being done into methods of influencing and controlling the mind, using all kinds of techniques.

Apparently there is some evidence suggesting that the children and grandchildren of some of the test subjects were subsequently followed and observed to determine long term and genetic effects of the tests. This could be another possibility.

Then there is other ones- like the possible existence of more dimensions than four, in which entities existing with more dimensions can be at times not perceived or interact with four dimensional consciousness such as ours- unless they have technology which allows that at certain points. These may not be extra-terrestrial, but multi-dimensional, encounters.

There could be even more complex and far reaching explanations, if you go into multiple realities, universes, etc.

-Or some sort of explanation that our science has yet to grasp, but perhaps will in the future.

Amongst all that, the simplistic notion that these are ET's coming from far away to perform exams on humans and cut out the anus's of cows seems rather silly and has the least amount of potential, from my view.

I won't tell what they communicated to me about them, and about the events- ultimately it doesn't matter- IF these were purposefully composed false memories, to hide some sort of human intervention, for example, then the details of their story are without value.

I just choose to walk away without any judgement or explanation.

Here's another possibility that crosses my mind from time to time!

We don't know that much about consciousness. We tend to determine the existence of consciousness based upon behavior of an entity. The more evident the movement, the more we can observe possible evidence of consciousness of some sort.
For example, it is only since we have technology sensitive enough to monitor and record the behavior and biology of plants that the question of possible consciousness on their part has risen to the forefront.

Some people consider the possibility of our planet itself as having some sort of consciousness, as we can better monitor and research it's movements and changes globally over time- this, in itself, might be a form of behavior!

But moving past such controversial ideas, and into one that doesn't seem to raise much interest...

Bacteria, virus's.... they have a physical existence, they reproduce, they form colonies, they battle each other, they have what could be considered behavior. They can infect one host and move to another, in a form of conquest, to spread their genetic material. They effect their environment in ways which can be beneficial or destructive, they influence it's growth and behavior, they influence the experiences of the environment (the host).

And what if they have consciousness?? If not individual ego, but collective consciousness? Consciousness without emotions, because emotions are physiologic changes in hormones.

If you go back to the concepts of collective subconscious archetypes....which can travel and spread through the rivers of unconscious connections between populations...

well, bacteria and virus do that too. They jump from one person to another, without us being aware of it. We only become aware of their presence when the influence and effects upon our organism begin to be felt and experienced.
What if the entities we are calling "extraterrestrial" or archetypes, are actually the consciousness of the microscopic entities living, reproducing, fighting and making alliances, within our own body?

The perception of "hybrids" for example, could be our subconscious minds way of representing our mutual influence on each others evolution. These tiny entities evolve within our bodies, and we each effect each others genetic information.

There are a myriad of ways I could point at the possibility that much of the experience could be a rising awareness of the "universe" within our own body and all the life it contains!

a reply to: Bluesma

I've had similar musings over the years and frequently find my thoughts going in that direction.

The more we learn about our internal eco-systems, and even the effects of parasites, the less sovereignty we seem to have over our actions. In the reductionist perspective, we are 'biological robots' being directed by a committee of gut fauna, parasites and the genetic legacies of people who died centuries ago.

Then again, I wonder if we'll ever see a conclusion in favour of consciousness existing outside of our bodies? If that's the case, we might find ourselves part of a deeper, wider eco-system. The 'abduction' experience might then be a record of interaction between a human in this reality and something else from a different reality. If that was the case, the idea of 'ET' could be redundant. After all, presumably, a reality where consciousness resides wouldn't be entirely constrained by the dimensions we are aware of.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I'm quoting from different sources. If you read the article you linked, how can you say "Travis Walton hid from the limelight and offers of money for decades.

You didn't link your sources,,, convenient that. Yah, I brought that link to show both sides. You just jumped on their bandwagon too. I bet you debunk the media everywhere else ?

I've looked at both sides. They were suckered (bribed) by media outlets in the beginning that promised them impartial reporting, then proceeded to baste them in the public eye. So now the record reflects that hoax. Thats why initially they came forward then recoiled.

I would have done the same thing. The media wants to discredit and poke fun at UFO's or promote it to make money. They found that out.

ETA: A Bunch young, dumb, ignorant, logger hicks found that out.

Quote your sources on ATS, its proper.

a reply to: Kandinsky

After all, presumably, a reality where consciousness resides wouldn't be entirely constrained by the dimensions we are aware of.

Did you just explain how traveling the cosmos is accomplished?

a reply to: tetra50

I agree that there's no absolute way to answer these types of questions, I like to ask things in a generalized way to see where people take them That way it's more likely that people will come up with all sorts of ideas that I can then see if they seem to apply to my case or not.

Besides, these types of events can vary wildly from person to person, so it's difficult to judge what's actually happening in someone's case unless you pretty much know their whole life story.

Then there's also the likely possibility that these experiences are a mixture of various parts of the theories people have for them. I'm inclined to think the interdimensional hypothesis (demons and programmers that know advanced Kabalah), mind control experiments and MILABS are all related and are accountable for the great majority (if not all) of these cases. The demonic aspect would be the reason behind the similarities of today's stories and the ancient fairies (and demon) stories. (This reminds me so much of Rammstein's song "Mein Herz Brennt", the part where it says "they come to you in the night, demons, ghosts, black fairies". The video also makes a lot of sense if you relate it with the mind control theme.) And there are reports of people that stopped the abductions by claiming the blood of Jesus...

Also, just because there are probably many cases where people are indeed making stuff up, that doesn't disprove the rest. I think those people who seem to be attention seeking and money grabbers are part of the disinformation and ridicularization plan, so that others, by association, think all cases are like that and don't even bother to investigate for themselves and do their own research. I don't have an opinion on the Travis Walton case because I don't know it in depth.

Like I said in an earlier post, in my case, I have very few things that link me directly with the alien idea and they are all pretty much very vague (like this dream I mentioned, that I only remember that part of being brought back home), but countless stuff that link me with the demons and mind control part. One of the reasons I think the truth behind this is a mixture of various of the explantions people have for it, is because that way people are more unlikely to associate all of the stuff that's supposed to be unrelated into the same problem and figure out what's really happening (for example, many people wouldn't make a connection between aliens, demons, the military, and intelligence agencies, at all - a reason to think about it? Well, Michael Aquino is a start...).

Another key to all of this, in my opinion, is the sensation of it being dreamlike, since that can indicate dissociation/depersonalization/derealization (which would be related with DID, which would be related with mind control). I think that depends on the person and this is not a distinguishable factor to differentiate those who are lying from those who are telling the truth, simply because some have very vivid memories and, for others, because of the dissociation, it all seems like a dream. This is related with the fugue state you mentioned.

I also mentioned astral travelling in one of my posts, and I think that would be somewhat involved in my case, (if I'm correct about all of this) - I have dreams that make me think of that. Ironically, those are very vivid dreams, that even seem more real to me than reality itself, when I'm awake, because I'm in a constant depersonalized state. I don't lose touch with reality, though, mind you.


a reply to: Bluesma

Thank you for sharing your story. What I would say to you pretty much I said it already in my reply to tetra50, so I won't be repeating those points. No, no one else in my house experienced this (at least that I know); the only thing I can think of that could be related to this is that a member of my family said she heard footsteps that woke her up and felt a presence in the room.

a reply to: Emma3
I only read the OP and answered the questions posed. I had no idea you yourself had had any experiences of this type. I meant no comment on your experience.

Related to some of what you said, I had experienced many other types of paranormal phenomena earlier in life, such as seeing and speaking to entities no one else could see (though none that showed any evidence of malevolent nature, as one would expect in the case of "demons". On the contrary, these seem to have been of a protective nature)

Several experiences with lucid dreaming, and what could be called astral projection happened to me before- though there was never any confusion about them being real physically.

One time when I was nine, I woke up to see a girl in the air in front of me, staring at me. She looked just like me, though a bit taller. I got so scared I screamed and hid my head under the covers. I couldn't remember anything after that, so might have fallen asleep.

But the next day my mom swore she heard my scream, then footsteps running down the hall. Her door opened, and she felt her covers be lifted up, and someone got into the bed. She assumed it was me, so turned around asking what was wrong. .. only to find no one there!

So astral projection is not off the table for me, and fits under concepts such as other dimensions.

a reply to: Emma3

Lots of interesting, intermingled stuff you bring up here, Emma3, and I wholeheartedly agree:

Then there's also the likely possibility that these experiences are a mixture of various parts of the theories people have for them. I'm inclined to think the interdimensional hypothesis (demons and programmers that know advanced Kabalah), mind control experiments and MILABS are all related and are accountable for the great majority (if not all) of these cases. The demonic aspect would be the reason behind the similarities of today's stories and the ancient fairies (and demon) stories. (This reminds me so much of Rammstein's song "Mein Herz Brennt", the part where it says "they come to you in the night, demons, ghosts, black fairies". The video also makes a lot of sense if you relate it with the mind control theme.) And there are reports of people that stopped the abductions by claiming the blood of Jesus...

It becomes very hard, reallly, now to determine what an authentic experience is, for several of these reasons. Where we really are is very important to this mixture, as well, in determining what's and who's responsible for our experiences. That alone will catch some attention and people will respond we are responsible for our own expeiences….However, this particular rabbit hole can easily lead to human use experimentation. If so, then much of our experiences are scripted and manipulated and prepared so as to gauge the reaction and then collect the narrative for the purpose of repitition and further manipulation and study.

I will attempt to remain neutral on the demonic aspect, as I would rather not give this theory my energy, no matter how pertinent it is to this issue, and it likely is, simply because there is a strong belief and attempts to use this as a spelling power on people to manipulate the energy…..

But your response is great, and brings up so many issues it becomes difficult, also, to narrow down. There are many great threads on this, here. But I like your asking such generalized questions to see what comes of it.
Take care.
tetra
eta: On astral traveling, for those who have experienced it, is different than dreaming. When engaged in that activity, you definitely know it isn't a dream, and that the "reality" is somehow altered, as you are in a different place.

I bring this movie up a lot, but inception and its concept of shared dreaming seemed to me to be more of astral traveling type experience.