Trillion Dollar Conspiracy... 9/11 Mounting Evidence...

a reply to: hellobruce
Bruce, you mention a list of what you call part of a "very silly conspiracy", yet I didn't mention any of those things.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of real evidence that that the official story is a lie. I can list ten things off the top of my head, and you will pick on the one or two that you see fit to poke holes on. It has gone on for pages. I am not going to waste my time trying. I have seen your act many times, and I know what comes next. It's like a movie franchise on its 12th installment. No surprises.

if you continue choosing to ignore what TPTB have done to us with 9/11, and billions like you do the same, there is really no telling what they might pull off the next time.

But, I will admit that ignorance is bliss in this case. Knowing, in your heart and mind, the truth on this one is a very dark thing.

a reply to: Jchristopher5

Oh, please list ten. I will bet that reality and the evidence will poke holes in most of them.

But...looking at your post that Bruce responded to, let me add...

1. The impact zone at the Pentagon was over 90 feet wide, and the fuselage impact area was a foot or so wider than the diameter of a 757's fuselage.

2. A descending 270 degree turn...which may be a "military style" appearing maneuver due to its safety factor, but then again the suicide jockeys really did not care about the passengers safety.

3. There were TWO concrete walls, the outer wall, and then the inner wall where debris broke through. Every other wall Flight 77 went through was 2x4's and drywall (or similar such materials).

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

Ten things. Please address all 10.

1. Fact. 6/10 9/11 Commisioners said it was "setup to fail". Co-chairs Hamilton and Kean indicated it was a "White House cover-up".
2. Fact. The "money trail" was never fully investigated. Since it "didn't lead to Al Qaeda" it was deemed "of little practical significance". 28 pages were blanked out and former Senator Leslie Graham has been pushing for their release.
3. The FBI confiscated 84/85 cameras at or near the Pentagon and only released a few distant, grainy images where no evidence of a 757 jet hitting the wall could be gleaned. You can only say something hit the Pentagon. Clearly there are much better images available, that we never were allowed to see. Why? If they are telling the truth then there is nothing to hide.
4. Fact. Evidence of nano thermite was found at the scene of the collapse. FEMA Appendix C-6.
5. Hundreds of firefighters testified they heard explosions, but 503 1st responder testimonies were omitted.
6. Fact. The collapse of Building 7 was reported by both CNN and the BBC before it happened.
7. There are testimonies from cleanup workers about molten metal, days after the towers collapsed. Leslie Robinson testimony for one.
8. Bush delayed thr 9/11 commission for 441 days. Pearl Harbor and JFK were begun in a few days. The 9/11 commission, investigating the most important event of our times, was given only $15 million. The Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair had $60 million. Why delayed and underfunded?
9. Thr PATRIOT act was written before 9/11 and The Project for a New American Century called for a "new Pearl Harbor" to get Americans behind war.
10. Fact. Building 7 fell at free fall velocity for 2.25 seconds, as indicated in the NIST report. This is impossible without the mass beneath it being removed. It all supports the theory that Building 7 was demolished. Just as Larry Silversein said. No, he was not talking about firefighters. Don't even suggest it, it's ridiculous.

That's an easy 10. There is so much more. Again, answer all 10. Don't cherry pick. I took the time to give you 10 give me the courtesy of addressing all 10.

Why don't you all go over to Jesse Venturas thread...... He has a list of nine.....

a reply to: Jchristopher5

1. It wasn't just a "White House" cover up. The majority of Senators and Congressmen did not want things to be examined too closely. There is a forty year trail of dumb ass decisions made by our elected officials that contributed to that day. The problem was, the decisions at the time, were made for what seemed to be the right reasons. An example, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the President and Congress cut certain areas of our Defense...during the Cold War, at ALL times we had a MINIMUM of 48 armed, and on alert fighter aircraft to protect the continent. They cut that to 14...and also decommissioned other Cold War style aerial defenses that would have helped us on 9/11/01. It was a bad decision looking back, but at the time, the money was used for OTHER programs...the so-called "Peace Dividend". Another example, during the Clinton years, Bill Clinton signed orders that made our intelligence agencies only use foreign assets that were "nice" to people. In other words, we could only talk to "good' guys that had not infringed on their citizens rights. Dumb decision because "Good" guys rarely have the information we need.....but "bad" guys tend to cause embarrassment when it is found out by the public that we deal with them.

Think back to the aftermath of that day, for several months we heard how the President and the Vice President were in constant communication that day and that our response, while tardy, was at least well-oiled. Glossed over was the fact that the reason why the President landed first in New Orleans and then in Omaha, was that the communications from Air Force One were so bad that he literally had to land and use a landline to talk to Cheney. Also glossed over, the HUGE communications upgrades made to the VC-25s as a direct result of that day.

Then, Jamie Gorelick, a 9/11 Commissioner, she worked in the Clinton Justice Department...where SHE issued the directives that prevented the Phoenix Arizona FBI office from sharing information with other departments in the FBI that MIGHT have completely unraveled the plan prior to that day. However, Ms. Gorelick was acting out of concern for the Civil Rights of the accused and keeping in line with Government directives dating back to the early 70s and the fallout from CIA/FBI overreaches in the 50s and 60s.

We got caught with our pants down that day...mainly because of well-meaning decisions made by our elected officials over a period of a few decades. And no one wanted a witch hunt that would have damaged the government for YEARS. So, we had an investigation, once that the Chief Counsel felt laid out the facts and circumstances without causing severe damage at a time we could ill-afford it.

2. The money trail WAS investigated, and 90% of it, led to people like Khaled Sheikh Mohammed and Al Qaeda....it also led to some Saudis.

3. The FBI, collected 85 videos from that day, under FOIA, it was discovered that

, 56 "of these videotapes did not show either the Pentagon building, the Pentagon crash site, or the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11."
•Of the 29 remaining videotapes, 16 "did not show the Pentagon crash site and did not show the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon."
•Of the 13 remaining tapes which showed the Pentagon crash site, 12 "only showed after the impact of Flight 77."

For a copy of the FOIA response..

web.archive.org...://www.flight77.info/85videos.html

For years, "truthers" have been hunting for 85 total Pentagon videos that they think exist.....and the majority of them, have NOTHING to do with the Pentagon.

4. Nano thermite. Actually, the items that were found that led a certain former BYU professor to the conclusion that there was "nanothermite" were materials found in EVERY steel framed high rise building. The majority of which are the byproducts of the WELDING done during construction.


5. FDNY testimony was not germaine to the Commission's charter. And, as ANY truthful firefighter will tell you there are explosions in EVERY mass conflag fire like we saw that day it does not mean there are bombs present. Electrical panels explode, severed gas lines cause gas pockets that explode, janitor closets are full of chemicals that explode.

Here are over 12,000 pages of oral histories from 503 members of the FDNY about that day.

graphics8.nytimes.com...

Good luck finding any that actually say there were 'Bombs' that day....better yet, look those folks up in person and talk to them about the subject.

(send us the hospital room you end up in so we can send flowers)

6. The early reporting of the collapse of WTC 7. Good luck finding a single historical event in the last forty years that the media HASN'T screwed up. Examples: the shooting of President Reagan, first reported that the President was not hit. Then ABC News announced that Jim Brady had died, when he was still alive and in surgery. CNN, came within FIVE SECONDS of telling the world that George Bush had died after he was publicly sick...all over the Japanese Prime Minister.... The mining disaster several years ago, they first reported that 11 of the 12 miners had been found alive, only to later report that 11 had been found dead.

Today's electronic media, in their haste to scoop the competition screw up all the damned time. Days like 9/11/01 are no different.....especially when you add in the fact that the FDNY was saying all afternoon that they expected WTC 7 to collapse.

7. Molten metal...first two hundred and ten story towers covered in aluminum and full of a dozen or so other metals with low melting points found in a molten state in the bottom of a still hot/burning debris pile getting plenty of fresh air from subway tunnels that were under the WTC. Big surprise....but, lets look at this from the other side, IF thermite had been used, the metal it cut, would have been cool to the touch within hours. Other explosives, would not have melted...and left the metals melted. Only a constant heat source (i.e. still burning fires ) would have kept the metals molten.

As for Leslie Robertson, he never said that.

www.911myths.com...

8. The 9/11 Commission Report being "underfunded". The FBI alone spent more money investigating 9/11 than ANYONE spent investigating Monica/Billy Boy. That IT was delayed 411 days...is pretty much meaningless. The FBI, CIA, NSA, PAPD, NYPD, FDNY and a dozen other agencies started investigating the day of 9/11/01. The 9/11 Commission, was to go through THEIR reports and compile the history. The Commission, was NOT to repeat the efforts/investigations performed by other agencies.

Running out of characters...see part two

a reply to: Jchristopher5

Part Two...

9. The PATRIOT ACT, has its genesis in the fallout of the ECHELON disclosures of the late 80s and 90s concerning the NSA and its monitoring of communication. Added into it were provisions to start a better system of tracking money flows from certain countries to certain groups and a few other things. HAD it been in full force in 2000, it actually might have STOPPED the events of 9/11/2001. Has it been pushed farther than originally intended? Of course it has, its what politicians and bureaucrats do. You want to stop that, you get rid of the job class of lifelong, professional politician. As for PNAC, they were more concerned with the state of the US Military and its still hanging Cold War mentality of a knock down, drag out fight with the Russians and how it needed to be better structured for the expected wars we would be facing in the future. The Pearl Harbor comment was how the US public would not support spending that much money to completely remake the US military absent a "Pearl Harbor" style event. And, we STILL have not done that.

10. Larry Silverstine and WTC 7. The words of Chief Daniel Nigro, FDNY (ret) ....the man who PULLED his firefighters out of 7 and the area surrounding it.



Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff).



The reasons are as follows:



1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.

2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.

3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.

4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.



For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.



Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.



Regards, Dan Nigro

Chief of Department FDNY (retired)

sites.google.com...


The words of an egomaniacal control freak NYC property owner/developer, in the end, mean nothing....other than a sad attempt of a control freak trying to create an impression that he had SOME input over a situation that was beyond his control.



OOPS...I forgot, the brief 'free fall" The southwest corner of 7 was obliterated by the collapse of 1, and the FDNY was watching pieces of it falling off all afternoon. Why WOULDNT there be a brief freefall ?

a reply to: Jchristopher5

As I am sure you know, you're dealing with certain people that are in denial of well documented facts. It is impossible to have a rational and honest conversation with such people.

Best of luck to you!

a reply to: hellobruce

Who said there was an operating nuclear reactor at WTC?

Oh yeah, YOU did. That is, I did NOT.

Modern and sophisticated nuclear weapons ARE NOT an operating nuclear reactor. Sheesh!

a reply to: Salander

Repeating things from conspiracy sites ad nauseum, does not make them facts. The denial, rests with those who believe the conspiracy theories.

a reply to: Salander

You introduced the comment about a nuclear meltdown into the thread. By definition, a meltdown REQUIRES a nuclear reactor.

nuclear meltdown -- informal term for a severe nuclear reactor accident that results in core damage from overheating.

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

Repeating government statements that are 13 years old does not make them facts either my friend.

And we both know it.

Repeating lies may fool the gullible, but we are not all gullible.

a reply to: Salander

Um, I don't repeat "government statements". I repeat facts.

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

I will give you credit for having used a lot of words, which you then utilize to non-answer most everything.

1. The 9/11 Commisioners specifically said the "White House" was covering up and hampering the investigation. Why did Bush insist Chaney be with him, and that all testimony was off the record? Oh, I am sure you have an answer. Just not a good one.
2. 28 pages of testimony was excluded from the Senate report. Why did Bush insist it be stricken?
3. 85 cameras definitely recorded more than we saw that day. Why did the FBI take security cameras from a local hotel and gas station, and threaten those there never to discuss it? Normal procedure you will tell me. It is BS that we don't see a picture of the plane. You believing that this was everything they had makes you either highly gullible, or...
4. Prove that nano thermite is in every sky scraper construction.
5. Firefighter testimony, the people who were in the building and witnessed things first hand is "not Germaine" that is a rediculous statement.
6. The media didn't "screw up" as you say by reporting an event before it happened. It shows foresight into something that they could not have known, unless they were told. Yet, you can't believe Silverstein knew it was "being pulled". You are a piece of contradictory work.
7. Molten steel three weeks after is amazing. There is pictorial evidence of the molten steel before the buildings collapsed. Steel mets at 2600 degrees. Good luck explaining that.
8. You never answered why bush underfunded and impeded the 9/11 investigation. You never answered why the Clinton investigation would have 4x spent on it. That is an insane fact.
9. The Patriot act was written before 9/11, as were war plans for Iraq. Thr Project for a New American Century called for a new Pearl Harbor. 9/11 gave them that. War and the Patriot act quickly followed. Sorry you are not sharp enough to see a direct connection here.
10. Your whole response on this one is a waste. Three steel-framed buildings fell that day, the only three ever to fall this way, and the strangest was building 7, which was not hit by a plane.

So what it was damaged. The damage does nothing to explain it's even free fall, where its entire mass underneath would have to be removed. Impossible without demolition. Steel frames do not fail that way. NIST could never explain this fall without demolition, and never will be able to.

Sorry, you know your debunking points, but they don't hold water. I am pretty much done debating you on this, because you are like a broken record. We will not agree.

removed.

a reply to: Jchristopher5

1. Seeing how under the Constitution, the 9/11 Commission, a Congressionally chartered group could NOT swear in the President or Vice President or even require them to testify. So, they appeared together and talked about the stuff that went on that day. Again, not a conspiracy....and again, the main investigations were being done by agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA etc. The Commission, was tasked to look at the history, the events, and the response that day. It was never once tasked to double up the investigations done by law enforcement.

2. Because the testimony involved sources and means...terms used in regards to sensitive intelligence information...and more importantly HOW we got it.

3. There were not 85 cameras at the Pentagon. In total, there were 85 videos from Arlington, New York and Pennsylvania that were obtained during the investigation. And, the gas station and hotel videos have been public domain for years now....and they show.......the gas station and the hotel. That is why companies have camera systems, to monitor their property, NOT the government building across the highway. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

4. It isn't nano thermite that is in every skyscraper, it is building materials and welding residues that idiots construe to be thermite (i.e. the "microspheres"...DIRECT byproducts of welding).

5. Again, the firefighter testimony was used by other agencies over the courses of THEIR investigations and was not part of the 9/11 Commission Charter. Again, you refuse to accept facts.

6. Yes, the media DID screw up.

7. Show me a metallurgical report stating the composition of the metals. And don't use the Professor's color enhanced photos. BUT DO provide a heat source that would last that long. (hint thermite isn't it).

8. The investigations were never underfunded. The FBI alone spent close to 60 million dollars investigating 9/11. Then there was NSA, CIA, NIST, FDNY, NYPD, PAPD, INS etc.......

9. We have war plans to invade pretty much every country in the world. There is a whole system dedicated to that at the Pentagon, and quite frankly, Iraq's were updated on a near weekly basis since the late 80s. Again, not a conspiracy. And again, work on the Patriot Act, started in direct connection to the fallout over the ECHELON disclosures. Again, not a conspiracy.

10. And you still fail to understand that we have photos showing the bottom 8 stories (or so) of WTC 7, were MISSING an ENTIRE CORNER of the building. We have the statements from the FDNY about the massive damage to the building. Just what do you think is going to happen when the 9th story in parts of the building no longer have ANY support under them till they hit the ground? Its going to "free fall" till it hits an obstruction....well then there is the whole issue of the ConEd Substation at the base of the building too.

And you are right we will never agree. You parrot conspiracy halftruths and lies and I present the facts.

a reply to: cardinalfan0596
More BS erupting form your mouth, and you know it.

Let's focus on Building 7, because you have absolutely nowhere to hide. The official story has never been able to explain its collapse, and they never will. Because, you can't explain away an obvious demolition. Not to independent thinking people, who look into this with any detail.

Thr building free fell, as admitted in the NIST report (an earlier NIST version having been prior debunked by a Youtube video from a HS physics professor) that the building free fell for 2.25 seconds. A chunk of corner of the building missing, and failure of some part of the steel frame, and Fire damage, DOES NOT allow for a free fall, for even a split second. The free fall took place for 2.25 seconds....absolutely unfettered by tons of mass that should have been below it. It is not even conceivable that all of the steel support could fail at once. To suggest that is just silly.

The fact that the building owner confirmed it was demoltion, and news outlets reported it prior to its happening, only confirm the obvious. The government story a is a weak, scientifically impossible "conspiracy theory". That is what you are supporting.

Remove your blinders, and/or find a new employer and get honest with yourself. If you have really studied this like you appear have, have half a brain, and are being honest, I don't think you could have the conclusions that you have. I don't think it's possible not to see some of the holes in the official story. Yet you recite every one as "fact".

None is more obvious as a weak conspiracy theory than the fall of Building 7. To deny that fact shows ignorance or some other factor.

a reply to: Jchristopher5

LMAO. No, the owner did not confirm any such thing. You are again relying on a half truth. And YES, missing an entire corner of a building AND damage to the support over the cantilevered section of the building can allow a brief free fall.

But, tell me, in your world, what team of Supermen ran into a heavily damaged, burning building and wired it for demolition in under three hours, without incorporating any known building demolition techniques?

And why would I want to stop working for the social networking company I do? THAT would be silly

originally posted by: cardinalfan0596


#1 is stupid. If these politicians want to plead guilty to a lesser charge rather than answer to their obstruction of justice then lets take it to court and let a jury of their peers decide.

#2 I would rather investigate the money trail AFTER the attacks because there lies the motive. You mind find that those with the motive had the means all along. No wire transfers necessary.

#3 We are all a little shocked at how lightly the pentagon took their security and their accounting. Is this another "I"m sorry we made a mistake now move on" type deals similar to #1?

#4 I wish CTers would stop it with theories that cannot be proven. The onus of proof is on the OS and I prefer to keep it that way. So far the OS is nothing short of unprecedented and the requirement of proof should be equal, checked and balanced. It is not. Just a theory to back preconceived plans of securing the petrodollar.

#5 New York Times is not a source. They are pro-establishment propaganda.

#7 You can not have a single excuse for an event to be reported before it happens. It is impossible. Other buildings like the Marriot were way more damaged and nobody was making any predictions about it.

#8 Nobody can explain this with proof on either side.

#9 The patriot act successfully became a muzzle industry. Investigate what you are told to investigate or you can forget about all this new money doled out by DHS. FBI was paid off. Even if they knew they better forget it.

Why was Clinton sharing air defence technology with Russia if there was the Patriot act on its way regardless of 9/11 to protect against Russia? That sounds like drunken logic.



#10 Silverstein is the reason I believe Israel was under contract to carry out the attacks. How long did he have the towers before the collapse? How much was he paid? Was he charged for a portion of the clean up since the the cost of the demolition of the original towers would have rendered the property useless to any developer. Nobody has ever demolished a 110 story building and I doubt anyone even knows how.

NIST? WTC7? OH yeah!



Too funny.

a reply to: MALBOSIA
It is amazing that anyone could believe this garbage that is the Official Conspiracy Theory. Building 7 is the smoking gun. That simulation, with its doctored parameters, is cartoonishly bad. Plus, WT7's fall looked nothing like that, and it still doesn't explain free fall for 2.25 seconds. NIST knows they can't explain it because it's unexplainable without demolition.

You are right about Silverstein. Follow the money and he made billions, quickly, on the transaction, and the subsequent insurance settlement. He and many others. Buzzy Kronard on his PUT options.

Foreknowledge existed and the pre-911 trading is proof of that. Even Saudi funding points back to its close ties with the US. Thet is why, IMHO, Bush doesn't want the 28 pages to see the light of day.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

1. What would you have them plead guilty to? Making decisions that they thought were the best ones at the time? Because that is what the majority of it was.

2. They did follow the money trails. It is how we captured/killed quite a few folks.

3. Then you never paid much attention TO the Pentagon prior to that day in regards to accounting. Then, they had a police force trained to deal with 99% of the likely threats. A suicidal airliner was never considered, but since the Pentagon is right next to a major airport, that kind of rules out any kind of aerial defenses there. (now, it is a record that the Pentagon did practice what to do if an airliner crashed there...again, if you are right next to a major airport....you MIGHT want to have a plan for a crashing airplane)

4. It is up to you, to show evidence of an implosion rig. Post welding microspheres only confirm that welding was used during construction

5. New York Times merely complied and published the interviews from the FDNY. Feel free to contact the FDNY and ask for a copy.

6. You skipped.

7. Name a reason why ABC News would report the White House Press Secretary was dead. The media screws up. And why was the FDNY saying what they were about WTC 7? THEY WERE WATCHING IT FALL APART ALL AFTERNOON...then there was the transit that showed the entire building was slowly shifting south...and the fires....and the damage....apparently all those firefighters saw something happening with WTC 7. Of course, there are plenty of accounts about them being worried about other buildings coming down too.

8. Nobody can prove that the FBI spent millions on the investigation? Yeah actually there are financial statements about it.

9. Your statement about Clinton, Russia and air defense makes absolutely no sense.

10. Silverstein. Has lost money on the deal. Between the lease payments that he has made to the PAPD for the WTC and the costs of construction, he has lost money on the deal.

Oh, then the NIST video of 7 and its theory. That is all it will ever be a theory. An educated guess. Do you know why? Because NO ONE went into the building to document all the damage done when WTC 1 collapsed and clobbered 7. All they can do, is guess....based on the FDNY statements that you two will not accept, based on the photos you two will not believe and watching the full collapse video, which you two think shows a controlled demolition.