Next Level BS #24: Decades of Institutionalized Racism Set The Stage for Ferguson

a reply to: howmuch4another

While I see your point I have to bring up the environment of one of my favorite artists of all time. One Notorious B.I.G.

His mother did everything she could to bring him up right in a difficult part of the USA. He became a product of his environment due to the association of his neighborhood and school.

a reply to: theNLBS

If there is institutionalized racism then it is more self imposed than anything the rest of society is doing. They lack the leadership.. No skip that, they lack the critical thinking skills to follow the right leadership. Those leaders of real progress are called Uncle Tom. They would rather follow Jesse or Al as opposed to Thomas Sowell, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Dr. Carson and the many others that are great examples of American success. When I say they I mean the people that riot, loot and think this type of behavior is ok.

Do they even know who these people are? I do. When they speak, I tend to listen to what they have to say. Then again, I don't see them as Uncle Toms. I see them as leaders that have and will continue to make real contributions to this nation.

People will say its because I am white that I don't understand and I should just shut up if I disagree with this tribal behavior. If I don't I am a racist. Racist sure isn't what it used to be. I would follow and help the guy in the last part of that video. He is a business owner and making a real contribution to society. I want to raise my family and work in a community built on civility and that is where I find my mutual understanding with my fellow man no matter what color you are.

So, I am a racist insofar as you think you are owed something for nothing and that is exactly what Mike Brown thought. He strong armed a shop keeper and took what was not his. That was his first mistake. What transpired later it seems is still up for debate for many. One thing is clear to me, a shop keeper is more valuable than a thieving thug any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I go to work everyday and so does the guy in the last part of that video. I am polite and don't display thuggish behavior and I suspect neither does the guy in the last part of that video. I pay my bills and try to make a real contribution to society no matter how small that may be, I suspect just like the guy in the last part of that video.

When it comes down to it, both the guy in the last part of that video and I are after the same thing. Peace and Prosperity. That is the race I am part of.

originally posted by: raymundoko
Do you actually think ASU is mostly rich white kids?

Rich in comparison perhaps.

But there is a great deal of local sentiment that positions the majority of the ASU students that are seen around the area (especially the lakes to the north) partying and being rowdy as the "rich white kids of ASU." It's not a made-up thing.

www.pbs.org...

•More than 50 percent of the witness statements said that Michael Brown held his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. (16 out of 29 such statements)

•Only five witness statements said that Brown reached toward his waist during the confrontation leading up to Wilson shooting him to death.

•More than half of the witness statements said that Brown was running away from Wilson when the police officer opened fire on the 18-year-old, while fewer than one-fifth of such statements indicated that was not the case.

•There was an even split among witness statements that said whether or not Wilson fired upon Brown when the 18-year-old had already collapsed onto the ground.

•Only six witness statements said that Brown was kneeling when Wilson opened fire on him. More than half of the witness statements did not mention whether or not Brown was kneeling.

a reply to: Donkey_Dean

Now look at the medical evidence...it basically calls BS on about half of the statements.

a reply to: Donkey_Dean

Stanford journal of legal studies: The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony

a talk by

Barbara Tversky, Professor of Psychology

and

George Fisher, Professor of Law


Laura Engelhardt

Stanford Law School, April 5, 1999. In a presentation sponsored by the Stanford Journal of Legal Studies, George Fisher placed Barbara Tversky’s research on memory fallibility into the context of police investigations and jury verdicts, discussing the relevance of such research to our system of justice.

The bedrock of the American judicial process is the honesty of witnesses in trial. Eyewitness testimony can make a deep impression on a jury, which is often exclusively assigned the role of sorting out credibility issues and making judgments about the truth of witness statements.1 Perjury is a crime, because lying under oath can subvert the integrity of a trial and the legitimacy of the judicial system. However, perjury is defined as knowingly making a false statement—merely misremembering is not a crime.2 Moreover, the jury makes its determinations of witness credibility and veracity in secret, without revealing the reason for its final judgement.3 Recognizing the fallibility of witness memories, then, is especially important to participants in the judicial process, since many trials revolve around factual determinations of whom to believe. Rarely will a factual question result in a successful appeal—effectively giving many parties only one chance at justice. Arriving at a just result and a correct determination of truth is difficult enough without the added possibility that witnesses themselves may not be aware of inaccuracies in their testimony.

and

Simple psychology:

Eyewitness testimony is a legal term. It refers to an account given by people of an event they have witnessed.

For example they may be required to give a description at a trial of a robbery or a road accident someone has seen. This includes identification of perpetrators, details of the crime scene etc.

Eyewitness testimony is an important area of research in cognitive psychology and human memory.

Juries tend to pay close attention to eyewitness testimony and generally find it a reliable source of information. However, research into this area has found that eyewitness testimony can be affected by many psychological factors:

Anxiety / Stress

Reconstructive Memory

Weapon Focus

Leading Questions (Loftus and Palmer, 1974)

its is easier to list the bing search engine
www.bing.com...

In the end eye witness testimony is not very reliable

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

They have the hottest chics in the Pac 12 though...They just want a piece of the CoC.

Sorry for off topic. A chance to bag on ASU can't be passed up.

when it reaches the point that certain people realize that they have nothing to lose, is when humanity loses the most.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord
You're condescending post diminishes the effectiveness and power of good parenting if you think it is merely a "shrugging off" of issues on my part.
It is intellectually dishonest to cherry pick...did you catch this part?

Yeah it takes guidance. Usually by adults with values that teach responsibility instead of entitlement, hate and blame.

or better yet this part? you quoted it but it went ignored.

Good values beat a bad community almost every time.

Neither referenced race.
Bad parenting has no racial bias. The "rich white kids" you referenced possibly had the worst kind of parent. Detached, believing in class separation, barely knowing their kids and failing to instill responsible, strong moral character.
There are plenty of poor kids of all sorts of race/color who overcame their horrible community makeup due to the influence of the strong parent. (I use the term synonymous with guardian).

As far as a system that disparages smart kids. That's not what I see. I see all kinds of praise,awards and recognition for strong academics. Whether ridicule by their peers has any impact goes back to the character and self confidence instilled in the home. Their are also choices to bad suburban schools even for the poor if parents don't like the product.

Regarding a culture that eschews personal contact? No it doesn't have anything to do with parenting except for the level of manners, decorum and respecting others being present/absent in the individual. Times change but humans still need guidance. There will always be a technology change somewhere that has to be managed by the populace. I didn't need a rating or time limit on the video games I played or parental controls on my cable because I didn't have that stuff. But diligence and awareness requires it in todays society.
I personally haven't seen a culture that "embraces" binge drinking. I've seen houses trashed by parties. I've seen campuses look the other way. I've seen the fraternity and sorority culture (usually linked to higher social status) embrace it but it still comes back to what foundation has been instilled. I've raised two college kids that managed to not succumb to that so I guess I got lucky? I am middle class at best.
I'm not dismissing the anger, frustration, or social station being attached to the cause but all of that leads back to the world view you hold of being empowered to change your circumstances or reliant on something or someone else. Only good role models can empower like that in a bad environment.
Protest isn't the problem. Protest is good. But I find the reasoning often misguided and the target of outrage often misplaced.
The bi-partisan studies you reference are founded in a "what does the government have to do?" mindset and the policies they spawned have been successful to the point we're having this discussion.
If we look to replicate the success stories of those who made it out of an impoverished environment the chances that the community as a whole raises itself in a sustainable positive way. I think it's obvious what common denominator in all this I am suggesting.

originally posted by: auroraaus
a reply to: howmuch4another

*sigh*

But do you at least agree that there is more that communities can do to foster resilience and 'good' values?

All I am hearing here is an "us" vs "them"

absolutely. I think things like the YMCA and community centers are a huge asset. The key is for them to not just be places to go but places to learn.
It isn't us vs. them but but a recognition that it all starts with some sort of mentoring and modeling with either a positive or negative context. That is where the breakdown starts.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I always appreciate your measured and thoughtful reply's TrueBrit and I understand your example perfectly. There is evidence that many who have grown up in the exact environment you describe leaned back to what is right and not the influence of the environment and became successful. I am not completely naive to the fact that great parents can be trumped by that charismatic pied piper or a mob mentality that leads our kids astray. I am saying that it has to start with a foundation from positive examples else it snowballs into what we see in the inner city. If we take it all the way back. In every situation, every community gone bad, there was a tipping point where the guidance and mentoring began to fail. The role models became tainted, and the leadership of the family unit became part of the problem.

originally posted by: truckdriver42
a reply to: theNLBS

If there is institutionalized racism then it is more self imposed than anything the rest of society is doing.

You've basically shown your lack of understanding of the concept of institutionalised racism in the first sentence.

originally posted by: ripcontrol
a reply to: Donkey_Dean


In the end eye witness testimony is not very reliable

Kind of a pointless post. Eye witness testimony is still valued testimony. Many people are stitting on death row, solely due to it. Witness testimony is used in conjunction with other evidence and is critically examined, by both prosecutor and defense. In most legal systems across the globe, witnesses testimony remains an important part of the criminal justice system.

Attempting to pretend that its either irrelevant, or unreliable, misses the point entirely and the context in which, like other evidence, its used.

a reply to: howmuch4another

You lost me on it completely here
Um.. how do I put this

My own experience dictates something completely different set of values

As far as a system that disparages smart kids. That's not what I see. I see all kinds of praise,awards and recognition for strong academics. Whether ridicule by their peers has any impact goes back to the character and self confidence instilled in the home. Their are also choices to bad suburban schools even for the poor if parents don't like the product.

Lets put it this way you just palmed a card may not have realized(I am trying to not call you names because I am mad at other knuckle heads right now..)

Their is a distinct difference between smart kids and and academics

Smart kids are smart

Academics are well, horsework for the plebes they have done

The academics are rewarded

Being smart sets you as different


This is where your argument lost me

Academics have support
time to do the work
a safe place to do it
food in there belly
most times support

Smart kids not necessarily

originally posted by: ripcontrol


Their is a distinct difference between smart kids and and academics

I can accept that. You are right there is a difference. I don't feel attacked by the way and I certainly wasn't attempting to obfuscate. I"m open to being educated here as the academic praise was the only thing I could think of as being worthy of ridicule.

Smart kids are smart

Academics are well, horsework for the plebes they have done

The academics are rewarded

Being smart sets you as different

So what shows up as worthy of ridicule then? What is it about a being smart that is identifiable as a negative? Is it social behavior? Is it jealousy? I never once as a kid contemplated who was smarter than me in my peer group. Am I in the narrow minority? Were others contemplating how smart I was and I was unaware of their ridicule?

a reply to: howmuch4another

Let me break it down best I can

Nope cant do it

heres the best I can do

1)Picture little animals in classroom
Form own social structure

2)add in development process of little animals
biological and psycholgical

3) add in teachers and staff's own pre-programmed bigotries

4) add in parents involvement level

5) add in little animals environment


Now with all this in the mix as the recipe

The children in forming their own social niches
will attempt to establish power over their environment via different methods

it comes down to
and those that do not fit in to those niches get exorcised
or forced into other niches

The teachers enforce this with their own prerogatives

Over time
it comes down to money and resources the children have to deal with issues
appearances so to speak

Now tieing into the community this Thread is based on

They never had a damn shot
Those that are saying
Well X made it
Well I have to be rude
Look up outliers

The truth is society is paying for decisions it has made and crap it has allowed
The outliers..well damn good for them but what about the rest

No one was there for them

Think about your own upbringing

Now think about kids from when you were in school
How many did not have what you had

Somebody cared

Please note I do not accept on a personal level
Well society is at fault
I do not accept
anything but it is my fault philosophy

When you move to cumalitive decisions that are made
Resource allotment, parental involvement, teachers giving a damn, competent leaders

Oh this whole damn mess is
Societies fault
The school board, The tax payers, the mayors, the police, the Sheriff

All of US

Well we have to choose between the music program and the superintendant getting that bonus

The result is the Supe is driving a bently

a reply to: howmuch4another

to sum it up

I am not mad at you.. my anger is elsewhere and leaked through to you a little

But as for objects of ridicule

They have proven teens do not rebel
They are the ultimate conformist

Anything outside that conformity is ridiculed in the name of social dominance

originally posted by: spacedog1973

originally posted by: truckdriver42
a reply to: theNLBS

If there is institutionalized racism then it is more self imposed than anything the rest of society is doing.

You've basically shown your lack of understanding of the concept of institutionalised racism in the first sentence.

You never read past the first sentence. It is self imposed. When you follow and look up to the lowest common denominator you are stuck in a cycle of poverty and death at the bottom of society. Its feeble minded.. Kind of like not reading everything and replying with a one liner and expecting to be taken seriously.

Mike Brown represented the lowest form of scum in that community. Again, I would take a shop keeper any day over a thieving thug.. A lot of people seem to love the thug Mike Brown but detest the shop keeper. Whatever..

a reply to: truckdriver42

Well the last leaders 'they' had were assassinated so...

a reply to: MissingRonnieR That was inane, playing the Teapublican rant. Maybe I was exposed to, too much of Hitler's propaganda by World War II immigrants. They were well acquainted with it and the inevitable results., from imprisonment, to forced sterilization for not meeting the Aryan standards, and fighting senseless battles for worthless places. Maybe all Teapublicans should be sued for plagiarism for lifting the speeches from the German propagandists of the war. The rest need a real education in history, not revisionist propaganda.