Cleveland cop kills child

originally posted by: iwilliam


That doesn't sound like kids playing, to you? Perhaps not actively. But here's the thing:

1- Real criminals, with real guns don't tend to just sit with them out in the open, on park tables. Sure, there is no shortage of dumb criminals, but 99.9% of criminals are not dumb or bold enough to do this. An illegal gun is a very serious charge. Doubly so for someone who already has a record. Everyone knows this. Especially the gang bangers.

2- Real criminals, with real guns, do not pick them up off the public table (thus taking legal possession) and put them into their waistband, when they see the police arrive. Nothing about that makes sense.

3- IF (and this is a pretty big "if") a real criminal with a real gun did in fact do something so stupid, their only next logical move would be to run, not stick around to confront the police and be caught with an illegal weapon which they just picked up from a public table.


Almost all of this suggests a person who doesn't have anything to hide (or run from.)

Perhaps not but real 12 year olds trying to be "Hard" would. Any way you slice it, this case sucks. It sucks that the kid had crappy parents that let him run around with a real looking fake gun in a public park. Whether it was a real gun or a pellet gun doesn't much matter, neither are toys. It sucks that no one taught this kid not to go around pointing guns at other people. It sucks that urban culture says it is cool to run around with guns in your waist band and point guns at people. It sucks that a child is dead because he removed the safety cap from the gun. It sucks that a rookie police officer has to live the rest of his life knowing he killed a kid that didn't need to die. It sucks he was put in a position he had to decide whether or not he was going to be shot.

Just because the person that called it in thought it was "probably fake" is irrelevant. The police aren't clairvoyant, they have to treat that call and the situation as if it is "probably real". As much as I would like to bash the police on this, there really isn't a call to. We as a society must be vigilant against law enforcement gone wild and reign them in when necessary. But we must also use a discerning eye in unfortunate cases such as this. Once the video is released we will be able to see for ourselves what happened and I have a feeling the cops side of this is going to pan out.

a reply to: KeliOnyx

I stand corrected. I heard on the radio and TV that it was on the east side and never heard that corrected. Thanks for the info. But yea pretty much anything from W 25th and eastward can be considered a violent place. At least until you put East Cleveland in the rearview mirror for quite a few miles.

I really can't stand this city and look forward to moving soon back out in the country where I belong.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

I absolutely hate the "They should have shot to wound, not kill" argument. Any one who says that has been watching entirely to much Hollywood drivel.

You can shoot a person in the arm or leg and they can bleed out in seconds if an artery is hit. And Arteries are fairly large. Also not a lot of meat on a arm or leg of a 12yr old so even if the shot was taken, who knows where the bullet would have gone next. Other people have been killed in this manner.

Yes... I know being shot anywhere can cause a person to die out but maybe this particular cop should have used a 'Tazer' in stead of a real gun against this 12 year old. He was probably just playing 'cowboys and Indians', I remember playing that when I was kid although admittedly, it wasn't with a 'Pellet ' gun and I was probably around 7 or 8.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

Hold on a second. You said 'a non pro' but the cop is a 'pro' is he not?? So, yes he should have shot to injure not shot to kill! He knew the kid was around 12 years old and the person on the phone even said that the gun could be a fake toy one, so the cop should have approached more carefully the situation.

Well, I actually said (and you even quoted it, so I assume you read it):

If you think...that a non-professional target shooter can do something like "aimed for the kids leg and just injured him," you don't understand defensive shooting at all.

So, yeah, my comment and assessment of your understanding of shooting still stands. You'd be wholly concerned if you knew just how often the average LEO goes to the range to practice firing their weapon. It's quite pathetic.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

When there is a firearm involved it is a potential deadly force encounter. You dont show up with a taser, whose maximum range is 15 feet, 1 shot available, and expect the cop to survive.

I get it. No one likes to see a 12 year old boy get shot. But no one wants to get shot either, the cop reacted to what he perceived as a deadly force encounter with what he reasonably believed was an armed suspect.

If the facts of this case exonerate the officer then thats it. Bad things happen. If officer is lying then hopefully he goes to jail.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

Ever heard the adage "don't bring a knife to a gunfight?"

The call was for a person who MAY be a kid waving a gun that COULD be fake around and pointing it at people. So no, a taser is not an appropriate response to that. Vixn sums everything else up nicely.

fox8.com...

bunch of fires in cleveland.
video of shooting supposed to be released at 1pm...

this is getting too close to home....
leaving in about 5 minutes to go get a shotgun

thats right

a reply to: Greven


This case sucks. A lot. I'm incredibly annoyed by the fact that people are calling racism with this case. On FB, I am in a liberal group... Because it's how I identify most of the time, and new articles are posted, and I like news and politics. This case was brought up and compared to Michael Brown... I debated leaving every liberal group I'm a part of. It's not comparable, and this wasn't done because of race.

I live in Ohio. I am 2.5 hours away from Cleveland, and even I know the place is terrible. A lot of gang violence, rape, robbery, murder... I can't even imagine what the cops have to deal with on a regular basis. It isn't racism if there just so happens to be more colored people in a city/town than white people, and the white people just so happen to be police officers.

It isn't racist if urban culture tells kids they have to be packing heat, doing drugs, robbing cars and getting laid if they want to be cool. It isn't racist when rap music tells kids that the police department is out to get them and to 'stick it to the man.' It isn't racist when a 12 year old kid doesn't have enough parental supervision, and they didn't teach him pellet gun safety. And it isn't racist when a white cop is working, making a living, and has to gun this kid down because he decides instead of raising his hands, that he would reach for the gun instead.

I don't blame this cop. It sucks that it happened. But what else is a cop in that area supposed to do? With gangs and rap music raising children, instead of loving parents, what do we expect to keep happening? Come on guys.

they were supposed to release the video at 1pm
i cant find it though
if anyone comes across it can you link it

a reply to: Grovit

www.19actionnews.com...

I listened to the press briefing and it was stated that the family OK'ed the release of the video. But the spokesman did try to remind the press to be mindful that the family will be seeing a tragic accident over and over once this hits the the airwaves/web/MSM.

Names of the officers involved were released as well. I think Cleveland handled this one pretty good. It could have (and still can) go sideways.

a reply to: TDawgRex

officers race released?

they released the vid but none of them are working

see if it works for you

www.wkyc.com...

fox8.com...

a reply to: Grovit

Thanks. Gez, that is an unfortunately grainy set of images. Videos aren't working for me either.

One thing from the Fox8 reporting was this -

Ed Tomba says one officer gave three commands to Tamir Rice to drop the weapon.

Which... was sort of what we were thinking and would require the kid to pull the weapon from his waistband. Need to see more to get a better picture of what happened, though.

It looks like there was another incident a few months back, as well - but it's just now being reported.
Investigator Exclusive: Cops draw guns at other 12-year-old boy

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Investigator Tom Meyer has obtained exclusive information on Cleveland Police drawing their guns on another 12-year-old boy with a fake gun.

The incident happened in late August near the intersection of East 89th Street and Superior Avenue. The boy was walking down the street, holding what looked to be a rifle.

When a Cleveland Police cruiser approached him, the unidentified boy reacted by running behind businesses.

WKYC News has learned that one of the officers involved in the foot pursuit was seconds away from shooting the boy. The boy was eventually caught and, at that time, it was discovered that the gun was a BB gun, resembling a .22 caliber weapon.

The boy was returned home to his parents' house, and was ordered to write a letter to Cleveland Police and the officers involved in the incident.

Bear in mind that Ohio is an open carry state, with a few restrictions - minimum age of 18 and permit for open carry in a vehicle.

He wrote a letter that says this:

Dear Cleveland Police

I was stupid and retarded to have a b-b gun that looks real enough to may have been shot and killed by anyone who own or carries a real gun. I am also to young to be having a gun even if it's real or fake. I was also stupid to walk down the main street with it. I should have just kept it with my brothers friend and shouldn't have touched it at all. Even though I was walking I thinking in my head what if I get caught also what if I get killed. I am sincerely sorry for having the gun. I glad you gave me a second chance because I can't imagine being in jail cell because I would miss my family, my friends and especially my mom and dad.

Which suggests that it wasn't his, similar to that 13-year-old who was shot and killed in California by the police for carrying a BB gun that someone had left at his house (he was trying to return it).

Some people have been quick to chastise his upbringing, but I wonder whether the airsoft gun Rice had when he was shot and killed was something he found, as well?

Tragic to see the loss of life, my heart goes out to the loved ones of the fallen.

However, the cop said "put your hands up" while responding to a 911 call of a kid in a park with a gun. Whether it may or may not be real is inconsequential.

The only way for law enforcement to know if the gun is fake or not, is to safely commandeer the gun. The protocol for commandeering a gun from a suspect is for the suspect to "put their hands up", and for the cop to approach the suspect and retrieve the gun without any aid from the suspect.

If the suspect makes any move toward the gun, the officer is trained to fire "more then one round" into the center of the target; to stop the threat immediately.

Regardless of any confusion or lack of information provided to the officers in response, the suspect did not put his hands up when instructed to, and instead reached for the gun.

The real choice that resulted in a child's death was not the officer doing his job perfectly according to the "book", it was the civilian who rejected the officer's instruction's to "put your hands up", and instead chose to "reach for the gun". If the child was taught the importance of doing what law enforcement asks when situations like this occur, no one would have been harmed.

The cop had to treat the gun as live, and the suspect as dangerous; until he had possession of the gun to determine whether it was real or not. Just because criminals place guns on the ground in movies, doesn't mean it is standard protocol; parents must teach their children how to act when police are on the scene to help the police make correct choices in how to deal with threats and remove them for the safety of all the community.

God Bless,

originally posted by: Grovit
they were supposed to release the video at 1pm
i cant find it though
if anyone comes across it can you link it

a reply to: projectvxn

am i the only one who doesn't see enough time for the officer to tell him to drop his weapon? i know he says the video is compressed but it seems like he just bailed out of the car and fired no-questions-asked.. :/

a reply to: biiscuits

I too would like an unedited video.

For what it is worth, something about the call...

The news is stating that the caller to 911 told the dispatch the gun might not be a real hand gun but the dispatcher never mentions that fact to the officers who were sent to the scene.

Told to put hands up and drop the gun. How do you drop the gun from the waist band without touching it.

All around sad situation.