ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

a reply to: FlyersFan

Considering your laws and legislations are based on their constitution I think they're kind of relevant.

But we can agree to disagree.

a reply to: tadaman

I'm gonna be pedantic and say Mexicans are American...

But I'm guessing you mean US citizens.


In which case I'd agree to an extent that they come first...
That doesn't necessarily mean that immigrants don't have some sort of importance.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yes Mexicans are native Americans in my view.

Of coarse I am talking about US citizens considering this is about immigration.

I am not against immigration. I myself am a first generation son of an immigrant. My entire family moved here from elsewhere.

How insulting is it for us to follow the rules of the land we wish to be part of while others do as they please while playing our heart strings. I had dirt poor family that came here looking for betterment. It was no excuse to do what ever the hell we wanted. They did things correctly since they didnt want to 1) give their people a bad name, 2) didnt want to insult the people here, and 3) wanted to do what they expected of people in their home countries.


You do realize that the average south and central american is VIOLENT towards illegal immigration into their own countries.

I took a cab the other day with a Honduran cab driver that was scared for his life to be pulled over here. He only had a US licence which was fake and here the cops kill immigrants all the time. WHY? Because if they dont deter them the country would be worse than it already is. I dont condone what they do but it has gotten insane here with all the flow of people to the US who say F it and stay here in Mexico instead.

There is no excuse. None. Morality is fine on a personal level. Law is based on natural law, not morality. Its blind for a reason.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I can understand why they want to be here. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people expecting the good ole usa to have an open door policy while no other country has one. Why should we treat them differently than they treat us? Or is that an admittance of American exceptional ism? That would be a hard pill for some to swallow.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Its funny. When I came here they asked for working papers. I had to go through an elaborate crap mess of bureaucracy to be allowed to work here. An American. They asked me to prove I came here legally and was legally able to work. LOL

Oh the irony....

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Its funny. When I came here they asked for working papers. I had to go through an elaborate crap mess of bureaucracy to be allowed to work here. An American. They asked me to prove I came here legally and was legally able to work. LOL

What's happens when you go to a hospital there?
Free treatment?
Just curious.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

NOPE.

I have to pay. There is now healthcare here, public assistance ect. The new president is good from what I can tell. He has generated allot of money with energy reforms by making oil and other sources private. He invested EVERYTHING into education, health care and social safety nets. It was actually REALLY needed here. A little socialism did Mexico allot of good. I wont lie about that.

I can go to a free clinic, but I would probably die just from the waiting room with rats or by the couple month students who administer care. They have people with text books in their lockers who treat people....I isht you not.

Mexicans dont even go there unless they are desolate or its just for stitches or something. They are being phased out from what I understand. Regular hospitals just give care and bill the national health care system now.

I think that eventually you will just have to pay upfront like everyplace else in the country or just deal with your injuries and illness if you are not from here.

There is no free care for guests.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well, lets talk a little bit of history on that Monarchy...

Since there's a lot of discussion about 'when my ancestors came here', does anyone know how Ellis Island worked?

Mine apparently came by way of Norway, Germany and Ireland in the early 1800s, I presume through Ellis Island. Were large amounts of paperwork required? Huge amounts of money? Probably not, it was probably the steamer ticket and that's it, arrive with a small luggage roll and after milling around being 'processed', some tired clerk mangles your family name and let's you on the other side of the gate.

At that point, you were on your own. No job, maybe no job skills, who knows, and very little money to find a bed for the night and start looking for work. Certainly no health care of any kind. I'm sure the tenements of NYC were a shock after the stories of 'paved with gold'.

Someone up above mentioned that 'we can't even take care of our own' but that's a Presidential and Congressional decision, too. If they can conjure up billions of dollars out of thin air to make Wall Street richer than the dreams of avarice, and if they can keep building war machines of all kinds and financing hundreds of military bases the world over in an Empire that covers the planet, and if spying on virtually everyone is a done deal, then methinks 'they' could make sure everyone had food, housing, education and health care for free, or paid for by those same imaginary fiat currencies.

'They' obviously don't want to....

So, again my question: How did Ellis Island work for all us whitey European types compared to what the OP calls a ridiculous amount of paperwork and waiting times if you speak Spanish and are kinda brown?

And aren't we mostly complaining about people coming back to inhabit the land that was stolen from them a short time ago, that was claimed by Conquistadors a time before that? Don't see a lot of Mexicans in North Dakota, they're mostly hugging the southern border...

Heck, now that we know they have 'immigration stops' a hundred miles in on the U.S. border, demanding to know your citizenship and 'what's you got in the back there', apparently the 'borders' are rather flexible.

We're bitching about fake lines drawn on a fake map designed by politicians who will feel free to bomb you if you're on the wrong side of the line. Take a look at the planet from space. No lines!

a reply to: signalfire

I can see where you are coming from and do understand and even agree with you to an extent.

The thing is we are not talking about arbitrary lines some bored cartographer drew up.

Borders and territory have been respected since prehistoric times. It is very much part of our human nature to mark out our territory and defend it. Its part of survival instinct and what you argue is counter to evolution and human development. ALSO, There is no system in place even in the most advanced society to just take in entire populations from other areas when they use up or exhaust their own natural or organic resources.

You can argue that they used to have this land, BUT since we are talking about Mexico here, lets remember that the last empire they had that was their own entirely before the war of independence was the Aztec. They LEFT north America and settled in central America. The tribes that stayed in NA did not just welcome them back. It would have killed them selves off to do so since the land and an ecosystem holds a delicate balance that you just cant play around with on whim.

When the conquistadors finally conquered the Aztec capital the Aztecs actually left to go back to their ancestral land in southern California. A few of these peoples integrated into the tribes that were there already. They did not make a new Aztec capital or even relaunch their society. The reason is that there were already people there. The Aztecs of the triple alliance were originally from there but they left long ago. The tribes that stayed were the masters of the land and they did not just risk their survival out of morality. It would be immoral to risk their own peoples survival just because another group met with misfortune. If it was a natural disaster and not conquest that made them revert to their former stomping grounds the result would have been the same. Not all of the new nomadic Aztecs were even able to integrate into the tribes of the north since they spent so long conquering them themselves.

Why do I say this all? Because that too is part of history like my people coming here.

Its not natural to say that its required to risk our prosperity just because others face misfortune. Nature is brutal and tribal culture was natural, and BRUTAL. Not noble and altruistic as we see it through romanticized western eyes.

There was land stolen, but those that survived that terrible era now are part of this country. The peoples of central America may have close relatives, culture and linguistic family trees in the US, but they are no longer part of this land. Those Europeans that came are long dead and like the Aztecs when they moved to their new land in Central America, we have become part of this land and its rightful inhabitants. WE ARE this country. Now. They may have been here before but considering that all humanity was nomadic at one point you cant argue that in a modern world. DONT LIKE IT? Build a time machine, buy an island and revert or what ever. NO ONE has a right to say that we have no claim to our home or a right to defend it.

If what you say was true the southern most tribe in south America could try to take back Canada and Asia...since they DID used to live there....and crossed from Asia, so watch our China...Peru wants its ancestral land back....LOL Its absurd and you know that.

As far as our government being able to tend to all but instead choosing to spend money on other things.....you do know that Mexico is VERY VERY wealthy in resources? Right? Their own government has enough to take care of their own and maybe even the whole of the USA. They just choose to keep an archaic system of castes and colonial elitism that is VERY inefficient and wasteful.

The proof is that with only just making an energy reform and investing in their people, immigration from mexico is down...WHY? Because they can now survive in their own homes. The generations of immigrants in the US came here during some of the worst times of corruption in their home countries.

The new ones have no reason to come for permanent residence. They can visit their families as tourists without getting citizenship....which they get just because its more convenient when crossing. I have a Mexican wife and a new side to my family that is Mexican. I ASSURE you, people here try to get citizenship because its better when VISITING. Few of the new immigrants come to the US like their great grandparents for the american dream and to stay. They would rather go to school and get jobs on wall street or in medicine. OR go to Europe as professionals with proper Visas. People coming and going are visiting their families that came here during other times and they come with no job skills and little to offer us that we dont already have and cant put to use ourselves.

Other countries may vary but I speak to Mexico.

There is no reason why they cant just get a freaking VISA and travel the world like the rest of us. When I go on vacation I dont seek citizenship so I can get through customs easier. Thats retarded. If I visited another country with stronger currency I would not try to work while visiting if its illegal. I could use the money but I wont. Its WRONG to say I will follow the laws and then do as I please and justify it all the way with "poor me, I am poorer than you, let me break your labor laws".

My land lord is fighting an immigration decision that made him forfeit his Visa over irregularities. He is now trying to get citizenship. TO VISIT HIS FAMILY. VISIT. He has property obviously, is WELL educated in technology and owns a small business. Tell me why he NEEDS citizenship? He cant just apply for a freaking Visa again?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

One poster has managed to derail an entire thread with irrelevant hyperbole.

Congratulations.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I think the current administration IS trying to scrap the constitution. Whether or not you feel that the founding fathers were hypocrites is irrelevant--if you take the Constitution at face value and apply it to our modern life, it works just fine and I still think it's one of the best government documents in the world. The founding fathers have zero relevance to the OP.

a reply to: signalfire


Your absolutely right. It was very easy to immigrate to America back then. You could come on over and starve to death without many restrictions. You could freeze because you didn't have a place to live or die from lack of medical care from lack of money. Times change. Social programs have turned us into a eutopia for the poor of the world. There sure are a lot of people crossing their fake lines to come to our fake borders.

a reply to: Metallicus

All but 1 of my posts have mentioned immigration...directly relevant to the OP.

& everyone has stuck to discussing immigration, that's not a derailed thread.



What the hell did you input into this thread?

originally posted by: mikeone718
Things are particularly bad in Mexico right now thanks to the government, so what snowball's chance in hell does the average man/woman stand with trying to fix their issues?

How is that different than citizens who are afraid to let their children play in their own backyards for fear of getting shot or harmed in other ways? We have people right here who live in extremely dangerous neighborhoods with no way out. They aren't illegally immigrating to another Country.

I don't know if any of you work with any Hispanics or central Americans, but I do. Now they all have a since of entitlement and are praising Obama. Talking about how they are going to move their cousins, grandmas and what now up here. I'm being dead serious with you all, I work with nothing but Hispanics and this is how they have just started acting since this speech yesterday.

a reply to: Night Star

Sure. Our extremely dangerous is nothing compared to theirs. Aside from that, my point was directed at their government asking them to stay home and help.

a reply to: mikeone718
Well people in mexico arent that helpless.

There are many instances of Mexican citizens doing everything from getting armed and kicking out criminals by force. Entire towns fighting off organized crime themselves as formal or informal militant groups....to towns and groups arresting every cop in sight. Not too long ago a town stormed the local police station and arrested EVERY cop and the town hall with its employees. The federal government came and took them all into custody with no hope of having the charges dropped.

The federal government even went so far as to arm and formally train another towns people when they successfully fought off criminals and corrupt cops.

Mexico is not going to fit the stereotypes around in the next 20 years.

You really have to see it for yourself. Its changing. We could learn something from them.

Some of these people are VERY admirable and brave. Righteous even.



They arent helpless.