China and the new Cold War Against the West

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: SLAYER69
Agree, China and the US play a dangerous game...with our POTUS being in a bit over his head foreign policy wise.

And, don't you think that Putin really, really,, really!!!! longs for the days of Soviet expansion, both for territories and resources??

Putin has never hidden the fact he yearns for the days of the old USSR. That's why seeing the actions of Russia with regards to the Ukraine, really shouldn't surprise anyone, yet it appears it does.

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: SLAYER69
Agree, China and the US play a dangerous game...with our POTUS being in a bit over his head foreign policy wise.

And, don't you think that Putin really, really,, really!!!! longs for the days of Soviet expansion, both for territories and resources??

No, Russia is already in the right position regarding resources and able to control them. More land will only bring more costs, so it`s not needed. The Soviet Union remarks had more to do with the problems it now faces with NATO at its doorsteps.

Putin however wants to see Russia become one the Worlds Super Powers again.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
a reply to: smurfy

The Modern world makes for a very different 'Cold War' environment. The economies are so intertwined it would be disastrous for either sides economy to actually start shooting.
So, there is that.

That's exactly what I was saying. As for space race, I wasn't dealing with a space race as such, though IMHO the Curiosity landing was a technological Tour de force, so all credit to all those involved, and will take some beating..so far. There again, space race=competition/co-operation when needs be. None of that is needed to direct a threat of some sort back to Earth, the economic rationale is the same, you cannot destroy the rock you live on..or under.

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: SLAYER69
Agree, China and the US play a dangerous game...with our POTUS being in a bit over his head foreign policy wise.

And, don't you think that Putin really, really,, really!!!! longs for the days of Soviet expansion, both for territories and resources??

What do you mean exactly? One of the largest countries in the world with some of the largest resources in the world, also a major user of natural resources to produce power on a stand alone basis, and sells other major resource to the rest of Europe. Or is there a problem with snitching technology? not a country in the world that hasn't done that.
There is no point either even bringing in the US president's lack of? and China's stance in the same breath by adding a third party unless you can make the case.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

All government's are inherently evil, this would be a pot/kettle situation.

As for communism, it doesn't exist on any large scale. The very idea of communism is antithetical to the existence of a government. Improperly labeling things hurts credibility.

a reply to: GodEmperor

Though the idea of Communism certainly was used by and probably even invented by 'the Hidden Hand' to serve as just another division in the hegelian dialectic. Marx and Stalin, Masters of the Second Veil.

Communism was never designed to work, it was a scam from the get go, still is with all the currency behind Fabian socialism/cultural relativism/political correctness/cultural Marxism.

Interesting though, that China and Russia seems to genuinely be opposing western hegemony, might not be controlled opposition in these two cases, these days. But who knows..

I think it is projection. They are actively attacking us in cyber space basically an act of war, so they are feeling guilty and paranoid.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

It's definitely not controlled opposition. Well I suppose it could be but Putin at least seems to be his own man.

China has been slowly but steadily creating a self-sufficient state (as near as possible) while benefitting from it's endless labor pool and stolen technology from the West. They have had to do very little in terms of developing technologies, they simply copy the best of what the West spent fortunes to create - particularly in weapons systems.
While their Navy cannot yet compete with the US they may well in the near future if they dedicate themselves to it. They have been building a super highway to connect with central Asia and something tells me their biding their time will be coming to an end soon.
China has big ambitions, particularly in Africa. They haven't wasted their national budget fighting endless wars against terrorism and their land forces are probably more than a match for the US and Russia combined. When they deem the time is right they will play their hand but probably not until the West begins to collapse economically.
Japan conquered a larger area than Germany did in WW2 and they weren't all that big of a country. Imagine what China can do with a population of billions.
Perhaps the central bankers did build up China but I have to wonder if they've slipped beyond their master's control.

a reply to: Glassbender777

I believe China is trying and achieving to be a 19th and early 20th century America Only they are using Communism.

Our democracy they say we have stinks and is not working so who are we to say Communism is much worse.

China needs to buddy up to Russia because it is their necks on the chopping blocks if Russia is taken out.

Tell me are you enjoying the police state in the USA and will the water taste nice when its full of fracking chemicals

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Amazing, this is the second country that is alledged to be having a problem with the US.

Exactly this same thing was said about Russia. As the US took more and more former Russian states into NATO the finished up claiming just recently that Russia is moving its troops close to Nato and is therefore raising tensions with the US.

Now that the US is starting to encircle China in the South China sea they are making exactly the same claim against China.

Well.. if those who believe this rubbish want to lodge a protest against China's insolence to the US, beg, plead with or do anything else you want to do, to and try to get the US government to not to negotiate any more free trade deals with China. I bet you will fail and fail dismally. ............. Just how gullible are some sheeple to believe the US.

I've even read ISIS is now causing trouble on the Chinese boarder.

If you really want know who is doing what to whom in the northern hemisphere read Paul Craig Roberts.

originally posted by: jude11
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

“It is for the people of China to run the affairs of Asia.”

Without anything else, this makes sense to me.

Peace

Fixed that for you.

wow this is such a surprise. the west keeps messing with other countries and now they are fighting back? how strange.

“Pardon Us For Our Country’s Existence in the Middle of Your Military Bases” – Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

China HAS invaded India,Tibet,Veitnam's territorial waters Pilliphines territorial waters and we are pivoting to face them down. China is doing the parent to puppets cold war style in Africa and the Middle east.
They don't produce their own designed very well they copy things and again not very well.I don't see their economy growing just balooning,

The China situation is interesting, it's one of those topics that really makes me wonder, frankly China's rise is so perfect it seems coordinated, it's hard for me to believe that the wealth of the world is coordinated from the top down rising and lowering nations for purpose but watching this in action, well, it's just hard to believe our leaders (not just the USA) could be this stupid. As I see it the next century is China's and it feels like it was done on purpose...

For example:

For the last 14 years of American History is dominated in the USA by constant interference in the region, for oil we didn't actually need but the Chinese do badly, massive amounts of money to make these forays possible came from China leaving them in a position to hold our economy hostage. Meanwhile now we pull out after basically having destroyed whatever infrastructure there was in the region, aside from Iran and literally all the way to China's door step...

So what happens now? Basically if the USA has ANY of the following scenarios, economic collapse, involvement in another theater of war (Ukraine?) or any other reason we would be unable to fight a major war... the Chinese could probably just walk all the way to Tel Aviv

I'm not talking about tomorrow per say, but a Chinese invasion of the Middle East to me is the actual likely long term scenario now, all we need to do is just do what we do and war with Iran and then of course "leave" or loose or even if the Israelis and the Iranians have an exchange that sends Iran into chaos... Your talking at that point a nation of 1.5 billion people with nations like Mongolia and Kazakhstan on it's borders, nations that have immense energy reserves, vast land and a whopping 23 Million people, Mongolia has under 3 Million lol and the Chinese practically consider it theirs anyway, not to mention Kazakhstan is ethnically Asiatic... Siberia? 6-7 Million people? China has more igrant workers crossing into Siberia seasonally than that...

People keep saying "China is bidding it's time" and I agree

I just don't think when they move the attack will be on other Asians, they see these nations as Satellites and despite a superiority complex East Asians are East Asians to them, why wreck your 3 biggest trade partners, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan... if the US were weakened they are going to be your vassal States anyway


The Scenario I picture is this:

The USA and Nato continue to be stupid and war escalates, we inevitably here are head to head with both Iran thanks to our involvement with Israel and in the region trying to defend the petrol dollar and Saudi Arabia by proxy as well, like wise the situation in Ukraine heats up and Nato finds itself in conflict in the Ukraine, that's enough fighting (and happening already btw with no input from China) to seriously weaken both Nato and Russia, Ukraine is very near Russian population centers, the war doesn't even need to get "extremely hot" for Both Russia and the US to essentially be IMPOTENT in Asia, 9-11 showed us how extreme even a couple of buildings going down in the modern era can be on an economy...

All it would take is for Iran to successfully whack a couple of Carriers before being fragged (which they likely will pull off) certainly the US would take some damage or at least have to keep a focus in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea in such a scenario and keep a defense against Russian subs on it's shores, that leaves China way more powerful in the Pacific (particularly if they NEVER threaten us) Further, this far from has to become WW3, all it would take is forced Russian and Nato commitment in eastern Europe/Ukraine facing off and some "minor" fighting for there to be nothing to offer China resistance, if Russian and Nato Tanks and Artillery are head to head, there is fighting regionally, conventionally cities in the EU take damage, Us forces are also dealing with Iran.... China has a wide open playing field...

And this is what I figure they would do... COPY US via WW2

Sit it out... let it go on, let the US wax Iran and take heavy losses in Air and Naval and let the fighting just escalate in Europe

At that point... pick a side and that side would be the US/Nato

Nothing dramatic at first, they would as they already are crack down On "Terrorism" in Western China, the I figure they would "lend assistance" in Afghanistan, with the US so busy and it being their border, well it would be natural to commit troops "open the door" of course any conflict with "Iran" would be the part that "ends quickly" a month or two of fierce fighting at first and with the USA having taken some naval and air losses and needing to hold a line in Europe, well... the next thing would be Chinese "Humanitarian" aid (boot's) in Iran and certainly they would have to "control" places like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan etc along the border because those "terrorists" would need to be controlled...

So in strict USA fashion, China would end up with boots from Afghanistan all the way to Iran without ever declaring war...

Now I figure by now, with enough steady conflict in and around Ukraine Russia would be asserting itself strategically in Kazakhstan, probably to the level they are now in Ukraine, nothing sooo dramatic, just attempting to keep US Nato forces from having a foothold, control the flow of oil...

And that's where China would finally choose a side, they would send men into Siberia, annex Mongolia, Invade Kazakhstan... Now of course we would welcome this with open arms, after all Occupation of Kazakhstan leaves them within miles of Ukraine, divides Russian forces, opens a second front in Siberia, things like "securing Chinese oil interests in Kazakhstan (which are ridiculously substantial) Border security via Mongolia and "protection" of Ethnic Chinese in Siberia would all give valid reason

Russia would have 2 choices, 1: go Nuclear 2: sign a peace treaty, loose territory and in the end? I think you could 95% count on Russia to end it sanely, Russians these days are Western, loss of life in Russian cities at all would be unacceptable, most Russians will be questioning from the onset "why" they are even fighting in Ukraine and likely you could expect Putin to be ousted because from a POV of the Public at that point Russia is fighting the whole world and what is Russia beyond a large Eastern European Nation, 90% of it's population is there, even Siberia would be a "Zero F's given" topic if "Russia" remains intact to most of the population...

So China, having Taken a badly bruised Nato's back to a degree and a War weary and broke Americas... like the USA after WW2 simply assumes the throne, pushes through to the Mediterranean and is linked via energy trade to Europe through Kazakhstan/Ukraine and through the greater Middle East, which is great for rebuilding Europe, solves the ME crisis because for all intents and purposes the Chinese would rape them clean and who could say no?

Many will disagree... but this is how i'd play it if I was China

They say "History repeats itself"

And if you read over what I wrote, you'd see the map would look a hell of a lot like the Mongol Empire of 1200 and more than one person or ideology has predicted WW3 being marked as a Chinese invasion of the ME

originally posted by: learnatic
Amazing, this is the second country that is alledged to be having a problem with the US

Unless one has been living in a vacuum they'd know that China has been at the espionage business against the US not just for military but also corporate interests going back a couple of decades now.

Tit for Tat

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: learnatic
Amazing, this is the second country that is alledged to be having a problem with the US

Unless one has been living in a vacuum they'd know that China has been at the espionage business against the US not just for military but also corporate interests going back a couple of decades now.

Tit for Tat

Their success at it has been so profound I often question that we might not in actuality be doing back door deals for whatever nefarious global purposes.

The spy plane during the Clinton Administration followed by some of the tech they started showing shortly afterwards seemed more to me like an offering than any "score" on the part of the Chinese

a reply to: criticalhit

The 'Offering' may have continued and possibly included the largest foreign Iraqi oil contracts.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Yeah, that's what i'm trying to say... I think the Chinese "have this" probably without ever firing a shot...

Kazakhstan is locked up economically, Mongolia practically doesn't even exist aside from a Chinese influx might not sit well with Russia... but if they are busy... Then Siberia, bleed off a few Million Russian sperm donors in Ukraine/Eastern Europe and Siberia's Ethnic Chinese in X time... all the rest of the "stans" have populations of Nobody...Without Russia and the USA able to offer them anything you have to let in more Chinese workers, let in the demographic of 1.5 Billion across your border and your nation is gone in a generation, then you have the oil contracts correct, deals with the wealthier Arab states the influence broader into the ME is already there...

If we go at it with Russia even as a conventional, regional fight....

The world belongs to China, what does it take to make Taiwan, Japan and SK pucker up? The loss of some US Naval might? That's almost a given, particularly if Iran scraps in tandem, we are going to loose ships and then all of east Asia cuddles up to China they get the apology from Japan etc... they'd have no choice

Forget war, we are handing it to them from our own inability to maintain peace, who else will there be to turn to? For "peace keepers" "workers" "money" or stop them from those little "acquisitions" when they feel like it or stand up to them whhen "immigration" from China threatens to change the border scenarios?

No one, no one if we have even a moderate conflict with Russia...

I have 50 bucks the Chinese essentially do nothing and inherit it all

a reply to: criticalhit

I just don't think when they move the attack will be on other Asians, they see these nations as Satellites and despite a superiority complex East Asians are East Asians to them, why wreck your 3 biggest trade partners, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan... if the US were weakened they are going to be your vassal States anyway

Agree and might add there are many more countries than the three you mentioned which all have long standing axes to grind with China..

China with their Walmart supplied dollars are a little smarter than in times past. They are all over S.E. Asia with public works projects and the building of new factories... I could post what some of the governments are saying in their news papers about the swing of the west to the Pacific..... Many are not impressed ...

China can not do the same kinda stuff with modern Japan plus there really is some bad blood between them especially on China's side.

BANGKOK: -- CHINA HAS agreed to help Thailand build dual-track railway lines and medium-speed train projects via government-to-government deals, Prime Minister General Prayut Chan-o-cha said yesterday.

The deal was reached when Prayut met with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang on the sidelines of Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (Apec) summit in Beijing.

www.nationmultimedia.com...
BANGKOK, Nov 7 -- The leaders capital cities in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) have pledged to further strengthen their cooperation in various fields including security, economic affairs, social and culture.
newsletter.thaivisa.com...
These days Indonesia, Myanmar and Vietnam are the American darlings which to me just means a few well connected people will get rich with bribes or construction projects for the U.S. military..

Things are going on behind the scenes which will strengthen ties for the countries in the region...
Japan's envoy tells deputy PM he favours world trade HQ in Thailand

BANGKOK: -- Japan is eyeing Thailand for use as a trade hub and is happy the Kingdom is changing its regulations to facilitate the setting up of an international trading headquarters in the country, according to a Thai deputy prime minister.

Lets say you weigh 68 pounds and have a neighbor who is a pro athlete who is 6'7" and 280.. The neighbor always visits you bringing gifts and well wishes... Even if he pisses you off sometime what are you gonna do.. That is pretty much the way I see China in the region.. Smaller countries will give lip service to other countries and do as little as they can for as much as they can get but China really is the big neighbor in this area..

Left unattended by the major Western powers following the May 22 coup, Thailand and China have quickly strengthened their relations - especially in longstanding defense cooperation.

During the brief visit to China last week of Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister General Pravit Wongsuwan, Thailand and China agreed to conduct a joint air force exercise for the first time within a year - and all three armed forces will now participate in full-scale bilateral military drills.

The new collaboration can pose a direct challenge to the all-weather US-dominated security exercises held regularly with Thailand over the past five decades. A new pattern China-led security network, which anchors on Thai-China friendship, could loop in neighbouring countries such as Laos, Cambodia and possibly Myanmar in the near future.

www.nationmultimedia.com...
newsletter.thaivisa.com...

Truth be told, after the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1975, regional crisis such as the Cambodian conflict (1979-1992) and the Asian financial crisis (1997), as well as Thai political quagmire, have played important roles in boosting Thai-China relations. In the truest sense of the word, Beijing has proved it has been a virtual ally of Thailand.

However, from within, there has been some soul-searching among top military leaders on any move to approach the two prominent powers - China and the US - that would shape the future strategic landscape of Asia and Asean. The alliance with the US since 1954, which has been the country's biggest security asset, no longer holds the same value as in the past. After the coup, Thailand has become more recalcitrant towards the US. In the past, it has responded to US strategic requirements. However, from the Thai point of view, the lack of understanding and "hurtful" American responses, especially those coming from their diplomats stationed here, towards the internal situation was a barometer of Washington's disinterest and insensitivity.

The American Ambassador has been replaced and a new one will arrive in January will hopefully improve the situation.. But I doubt it ... I actually did a thread answer a few months back saying this was going to happen but most of the relies were more "Ra Ra USA Pacific here we come" and "things will not change" etc... Not a fortune teller but the geopolitical stuff around these parts are easier to read than a first graders "See Spot Run" book..