Christians stop pretending Christmas is Jesus birthday

Now that the stores look like a Christmas wonderland, it is time to rehash an old theme. Abolishing Christmas as a religious holiday and Christians ending the celebrating of Christ's birth on a pagan holiday.

We all know by now that many secular and religious leaders have narrowed down the actual birth of Christ to the spring time. March or April is fairly well agreed upon by religious and non-religious scholars.

So why are Christians still falling into the pagan trap of Saturnalia?

I think it is time we joined our atheist brothers and call off Christmas on Dec. 25th.

Easter is the more appropriate time to celebrate the birth followed by the death and resurrection.

Very few atheists care at all about Easter anymore or trying to get rid of it.

When we celebrate the materialistic and hedonistic orgy that Christmas has become, we are actually being disrespectful and committing heresy by celebrating Christmas the way we do. We are a bunch of grubby revelers over material goods that most of us don't really need, frequently don't want, and put people into debt. We are basically worshiping ourselves through a materialistic orgy.

People talk about it as a season of giving to the poor, but I see very very little evidence for that excuse for what has become a quite nasty selfish and self centered orgy of overeating, tasteless over decorating, and telling others what we want - belittling people behind their backs because of what they gave us we didn't like.

Christmas has become the antithesis of what it should be, and as long as we know the date is wrong, shouldn't Christians of good conscience start refusing to participate? And remembering Christ's birthday when it really happened, not making it into a pagan orgy again but a true celebration of life through selfless giving?

On this point I agree with atheists, lets all dump Christmas, it is a faux religious holiday and is now a holiday of rampant consumerism and selfishness.

a reply to: grandmakdw
a) Yes, the date is arbitrary.
b) It doesn't matter that the date is arbitrary, since no importance attaches to getting the exact date, and we can't know it.
Christians can still detach themselves from the way that it has got distorted. A different arbitrary date would solve nothing.

but...but... but... we great deals on electronics /sarcasm/

a reply to: grandmakdw

Very well said, xmas really has become an abomination of what it once stood for.
And it all starts the day after thanksgiving where people fight and kill to get the best deal they possible can.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I understand where you are coming from but sadly it's never going to happen. I think for most it's merely a holiday in which to eat drink and be merry.

I personally don't know anyone who actually celebrates Christmas as anything more than a holiday with no religious importance to it at all.

All we can do is not buy into the commercialism of it. I've given up trying to get family and friends to stop giving me gifts even though most of them know just how much I hate that it's a ploy to get people to shop. I will be honest though, I love the day off and being around family having fun. They all know they will get some awesomeness that I've whipped up in my kitchen to take home with them or that I will bring them. If the gathering should be at my home they know there will be no tree with all the trappings that go with the "decorating". Everyone seems to be fine with it. I don't lecture them if they should choose to celebrate how they wish and they accept my way of dealing with the day and we all have a great time.

Like I said I feel ya I really do, but we just have to accept people where they are when it comes to religion and holidays. I find it to be a lot less stressful than trying to get everyone to think like I do.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Hell!

For Christ's sake.........it is the one damn holidays that I actually see human beings (at least where I am from) show more kindness to others than normal.

Sure it also, puts tons of money in the corporate pockets, but does it not bring out the charitable side of most people or at least more so than normally?

I am all for ANY day that makes people reflect upon their wrong doings and try to be better human beings!

The world is going down the tubes fast and this is what we should change?

BTW? I don't even believe in God anymore, but I sure as hell want to believe we as human beings still have a chance at being kinder and more charitable to those with out, and if Christmas is that one day we have a year? Leave it the hell alone!

Just my two cents.....

a reply to: grandmakdw

Well... I'm a Pagan so I'll just keep celebrating the Winter solstice as I have been. Good food, family, maybe a bit of gift giving. It should be fun!

Hail Eris!

kallisti

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: grandmakdw
a) Yes, the date is arbitrary.
b) It doesn't matter that the date is arbitrary, since no importance attaches to getting the exact date, and we can't know it.
Christians can still detach themselves from the way that it has got distorted. A different arbitrary date would solve nothing.

I see your point. I do feel that Christians should detach themselves from what it has become.

As a grandmother, it is hard sometime, but over the past few years I have been slowly cutting back on the number of gifts I give to each child/grandchild. I have been trying to focus on quality and long term meaningfulness or usage. No more lots of "stocking stuffers" that end up in the trash quickly.

When the grandchildren get older I plan to discuss another idea rather than gift giving, using the money I would have spent on gifts (which one rarely remembers from year to year), to a family trip (which people tend to remember for a lifetime), and a charity donation in their name, and one small but meaningful gift.

Now, one of the handful of gifts I give are certificates of a chicken, rabbit, goat that I purchase in their name for the poor around the world. I also do a box for poor children overseas, and purchase food for food banks in the name of my family who truly need for nothing (wants are a different matter), but none in my family need for anything.

The grandchildren are still quite young and so get a toy/books etc from me, but not the orgy of giving we did when our children were young. I personally would give up Christmas altogether, but don't think the grandchildren would understand yet, and darn it all, I love those little critters so much.

But eventually my goal is to refocus off the orgy that has nothing to do with Christ, onto something meaningful that really celebrates the tenets of my faith. A family trip is one way to honor Deut. 11:19-21, taking time to show ones faith through spending time and putting effort into teaching the next generation. The way we do family trips we spend a lot of time talking and sharing, a good time to teach faith through life.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Chris Rock hosted SNL a week or so ago and did a bit on this during his monologue. Brilliant scathing. Had the audience holding their breath, not knowing if he was serious or not. Chastising Christmas and the little babe. But he, being Chis Rock, managed to pull it off well I thought.

Yes, I hold Christians responsible for this mega-dose of sludge we get from October to January. Sure we can blame the capitalists, and the advertisers and all the rest that want to sell crappola by the shovel full, but I place the blame on the Christians. Letting the day they celebrate the birth of their savior be turned into a cesspool is their fault. Were I a Christian, I would be using this time to castigate the materialism of the season rather than trying to set up the biggest and bestessed nativity scene on my front lawn.

Indeed, their failure to do so, for me, calls into question the very essence of their faith.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Religion has all descended through paganism and ancient beliefs - so what?

If some people choose to believe in a supreme being that created the universe - and is never ever seen - is it surprising that they choose to make Christmas the birthday of Christ? Its only comparatively recently that people have questioned the dogma and started to think about when different happenings, like Christ's real birethday occurred. Its all speculation as there are no records coming down to us from the Romans.

Paganism for many is a different view on life, that of celebration of life and the Saturnalia is a brilliant holiday and brings good cheer for those of us who live in the northern hemisphere.

Everyone moans about the exploitation of the retail corporations and the way they push Christmas on the public but its up to people how they choose to celebrate it and if some choose to celebrate it as Christ's birthday is that anymore far fetched to someone believing in a supreme being that created the universe and, presumably all the other universes we are slowly becoming aware of and, of course we should not forget the devil plus horns and tail who is equally unseen throughout history as God himself.

a reply to: seeker1963

You are quite free to celebrate Christmas, everyone is.

But since you are not a Christian, by your own statement, why should you care if Christians take a stand and quit celebrating Dec. 25th?

My rant is directed at Christians who think they are being "good Christians" by celebrating Dec. 25th, when it is really the antithesis of the teachings of Christ as it is "celebrated" now.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Since you are a pagan, it makes sense for you to engage in the orgy of Saturnalia.

Enjoy yourself, that's your prerogative.

I just think that Christians need to really rethink participating in an event that pretends to be religious and a Christian holiday, when in reality it is not. People true to their faith should really think deeply about this and start making changes in my opinion, if they are truly Christians.

a reply to: grandmakdw
I've always thought of Christmas as a symbolic celebration of their Christ which hijacked the earlier Pagan festival date when Christianity was in conquering mode back in the day.
I'm sure many devout Christians truly celebrate 'the birth of Christ' in an appropriate way to how they perceive their religion. Personally I don't believe in any gods so Christmas to me is time off work partying with family and friends who are also not working.
I still say Merry Christmas though even if I don't believe in Jesus...and I likewise wished Happy Halloween to a few people last week even though I don't believe the Samhain tales of spirits and dead souls need any offerings from me. I don't believe in souls either though, or anything which has no evidence to date...I just enjoy the party and feel happy for those who do wish to celebrate any harmless faith based thing they believe.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
a reply to: seeker1963

You are quite free to celebrate Christmas, everyone is.

But since you are not a Christian, by your own statement, why should you care if Christians take a stand and quit celebrating Dec. 25th?

My rant is directed at Christians who think they are being "good Christians" by celebrating Dec. 25th, when it is really the antithesis of the teachings of Christ as it is "celebrated" now.

I get that!

However, I know many Christians that along with many others who are not, for whatever reason, become more charitable and seem to want to help others. Food drives for the poor, angel trees for clothes and a few gifts for children, not to mention, SOME of them actually act like Christians should every day, if at all they are serious about practicing what they preach.

I can remember 40 years ago people complaining about how commercial Christmas has become, have they stopped the consumerism that it supports?

I do agree with you though that it isn't about the money spent on gifts nor families going into debt for keeping up with the Joneses, but would Christians not be as culpable as the atheists for taking "Christ" out of Christmas? Even though it might not actually be Christ's birthday, Christmas has become a tradition that is celebrated even by people of non Christian faith.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I just don't see how it will accomplish anything either.

It's the end of the year for my husband, and he takes the last of his time off, so we spend a lot of time together as a family. We also spend time with our extended family. We are not wealthy, so we give gifts to the children and we adults only give a couple very small ($5) gifts to each other. At home, my husband and I only give a few gifts to our son and we read the Christmas story out of the Bible, or as our son calls it, "The Story of the Baby."

We get far more out of spending time together enjoying food, fellowship and playing games as a family than we do out of giving things to each other. And there is always a family prayer.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Helios or Sol Invictus represents Christ as the new Sun of the Roman Catholic Liturgy. The Festival of Natalis Invicti (Birth of the Unconquerable Sun) was held on December 25th. Roman Catholic liturgical practices are comparable to Mithraic rites. Grigori are chanting about something in plain sight. Grigori are Watchers. We do not get the entire story.

According to Enoch, the 70 generations until the watchers are judged is nearly concluded. What have they learned from their rule of humanity and the seducing spirits? What have we learned from the oppression? Revelation is written to seven angels. By this message to the messengers, we know that the Lord of Hosts is not happy with all of his workers. We also know that he seeks to threaten Heaven's Armies.

Isaiah 24

On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

It is my contention that Yahweh was placed on a cross to fulfill Genesis 9 and Elohim's law for shedding blood. Rather than punish Heaven's armies, He came as a new creation (baby) and suffered in the shame of the world he had created. Christianity is a confusion of symbols that have been transcribed incorrectly. Paganism is the same. The mixing of iron and clay further renders Yahweh's kingdom into chaos. Rather than the OT being a marker of God's rule, it is a marker of one trying to take the throne.

The one that created the Snake must bear the burden of ruling the Kingdom of his own making. Elohim patiently waits on us to look past the Sun and Moon and to the one above these dimensions. At least, that's my reasoning of the season. Giving is the lesson Christ taught, primarily, because it is the word of the Father through the humbled Son.

The greatest gift will be the one given to mankind when Christ comes to love enemies. If this fails to happen, Christmas can be cancelled. While we wait, keep celebrating the truth Yahweh must follow in his own words. Giving and receiving is the greatest good. Taking marks the thief. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. He is a liar. Satan is the creation of Yahweh. Destroying his lower nature will render a gift to the image of mankind. Tyranny will be over.

I say December 25th is a good reminder of what needs to take place to end bloodshed and war. Look to the head that moves the body. Careful not to get burned by the fire as you go down the chimney.

It's non Christians that have made it a materialistic orgy. I fail to see how it's Christians fault they've done it, that just makes no logical sense.

Christians aren't pretending, they are just mixing their religion with consumerism. Its more comfortable that way.

Otherwise they would have to forsake the world and all.

What a conundrum.

i think we should have 13 months and make october the 8 mo.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
a reply to: Shiloh7

Since you are a pagan, it makes sense for you to engage in the orgy of Saturnalia.

Enjoy yourself, that's your prerogative.

I just think that Christians need to really rethink participating in an event that pretends to be religious and a Christian holiday, when in reality it is not. People true to their faith should really think deeply about this and start making changes in my opinion, if they are truly Christians.

That's pretty ignorant and rude of you to say to him. That's like me saying "Since your from one Abrahamic faith (Christianity), then you should celebrate all the Muslim traditions".

The Solstice is observed by countless religious paths for a reason. The Jesus story lined up nicely with stories that have been told dozens of times before which rotate around that time. Saturnalia is no more the origin than Christmas. Many of us celebrate it as Yule and others celebrate it by various names.

Christmas is a cultural holiday and I have no problem celebrating it as a pagan right alongside Yule. I even like Christmas songs that sing about your gods. Just because capitalism and consumerism ruined the holiday, that's no reason to take your misplaced anger out on paganism, in general. It's not our fault the majority of Earth we all recognize the solstice time as special.