Paradox Waves - Time Travel to the Past Does Not Affect the Present

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: Rabb420

Actually this was my first thought too, but further studying of Einstein's Minkowski spaces show that when we go back in time, we stay in the same "universe". But... I checked the geometrical aspect of space, and your suggestion could indeed work if the Universe had one more time dimension. The good news is, I cannot falsify your theory, because we don't know if the universe has one or more time dimension - we are only assuming it has only one because that is what fits best Occam's Razor.

Well we have the superstring theory, my bet is that once the event is changed another timelime is created, this theory is exploredin the movie Donnie Darko. I don'y know if you saw it. I barely know physics of physics, but if i could suggest anything is that if anything stayed in the same timeline it woud create too many paradoxes.

a reply to: swanne

Oh, really?

Yes, really. I can't help it if you don't understand what you're reading.

I strongly suggest you hold your peace and let me go. Believe me, you don't want an argument.

a reply to: Rabb420

wouldnt even the smallest act change everything significantly ? or at least potenially?

I liked the story of the ship able to send a signal back and save the planet because I could see messages not really disrupting the timeline of events. However the grandfather paradox doesn't really hold weight with your theory. The grandfather paradox would still affect the present thus creating a new timeline or parallel universe. S+F

originally posted by: game over man
The grandfather paradox would still affect the present thus creating a new timeline or parallel universe.

The grandfather paradox would happen in the past. Meanwhile, the present will still be traveling in time futureward. The paradox has a finite speed in time - it would never catch up the present. The present is protected from the paradox in the past by nothing more, nothing less than its speed of +1 second per seconds in Time.

Causality is preserved.

originally posted by: swanne

So I think I understand what you are saying....with the wave...We have our time line and by us changing the past it creates this wave that goes over the previous flow of time.

But then you also are basically saying we could always return to the present. Then when we look back at the past, would the past be? How we changed it? Or how it always was?

Or would you be saying, "In the past I went back in Time and killed my Grandfather or saved the Earth from extinction, and then I returned back to the present."

So are you saying the past is a physical location we can go to and change an infinite amount of times and it would not change the present?

But how would one scenario of saving the Earth obviously change the present, and how would killing your grandfather not change the present? Or would you just become this rogue human being with no past, and your past family tree would be completely different now without your grandfather?

a reply to: Korg Trinity

But as we have discovered through QM and entanglement that no time is needed to propagate state changes.

Well put indeed; your argument actually explores the core of my theory - I am so glad you ask the pertinent questions, unlike some other people around here.

My counter-argument: The no-time state change is geometrically similar to what we call, in Relativity, space-like events. The properties of such propagation is very akin to that of a tachyon - this is why in this thread I often use tachyons as example of faster-than-light communication. This is why Einstein had a kneejerk reaction of disgust upon seeing the QM's prediction of entanglement. The state change do occur in absolutely no time - but in my opinion, this does not necessarily falsify the fact that the paradox which will then be created will travel at a finite speed. Allow me to explain:

Let us say you could interfere with the past (using your entangled signal) to, for instance, warn the Earth against an imminent asteroid collision. (Please do remember however that there is a no-communication theorem regarding entanglement, in which case your point would be falsified since no communication would mean no paradox in the first place) The warning is sent, in literally, no time from the present to the past. The Earth is the past is warned, and an historical paradox is created. The thing is, the entangled signal does not carry the paradox, it carries the warning which in turn causes the paradox. The paradox in itself still has to travel up in Time at the speed of 1 second per second. The warning is not the historical change in itself. A letter asking for more soldiers to fight a war is not more soldiers in itself.

The biggest one being how are the other universes created.... They were created in their own big bangs in a multiverse

So the past is already set? Every events, all of our actions may it be past and future, every anomalies are already accounted for, and History (with a capital "H") is akin to nothing more than an already-written tape, with the Present acting as a simple playhead?

This is some impressive determinism, my friend...

each universe a slice of the whole, although not entirely segregated from each other they all exist outside and separate from each other.

But what is their physical location according to the QM? How do they escape our detection?

What I propose is that the multiverses are indeed a slice of the whole (they are all slices of Time). Indeed they aren't entirely segregated from each other because they all share one out of four dimensions (Time) with each other. And indeed they also exist outside and separate from each other, separated by paradox boundaries. Universes with different constants can even be argued to have been created in the early stage of Time, the cause being time "paradoxes" causing different "re-enactments" of the universe's birth, with each their own different constants.

The issue most people have with time is trying to get your head around the fact that cause and effect are not as linear as one might think and that something that happens in nature seemingly completely at random could be the result of something completely unrelated in our future... due to the fact that past/present and future are all connected.

Well, at least I can certainly agree with that. In some strange cases, the effect can precede, in Time, the cause - few people realize that this, in itself, does not violate causality. What does violate causality is an effect without a cause.

originally posted by: game over man
But then you also are basically saying we could always return to the present.

Not necessarily. You can be born in the 1990s, disappear in 2014, go back in time and end up dying in the 1800s. Causality can twist in all manners, as long as the effect is caused by the cause.

So are you saying the past is a physical location we can go to and change an infinite amount of times and it would not change the present?

Indeed. Because the present is, in itself, a time-travel device - it travels futureward. It is like a natural time machine that forever runs away from the past and all its alternate realities.

But how would one scenario of saving the Earth obviously change the present

The present is not changed. The original reality (Earth destroyed) will still survive in the present.

and how would killing your grandfather not change the present?

Because it will only change the past. By changing the past you create an alternate history, which then progresses futureward. By the time the "new" history arrives to a paradox, it's too late, your present history is already even further in the future.

Good read, although I believe I've heard this theory before or at least one that was similar.

A few thoughts of my own...

1. Travelling into the past in the same universe would violate the first law of thermodynamics. To simplify, let's say you had a AA battery, a day later you travel back in time and give yourself the battery, now you have two. The next day you do it again and then you have 4. And so on... Now you are effectively creating energy.

2. Infinite amounts of energy does not necessarily mean "all the energy in the universe". As per my first comment, if recursively sending energy into the past was possible that qualifies as infinite amounts of energy. A faster than light engine would just need to continue using the energy before it used it. Of course you still need to get the thing started somehow.

3. Continuing down this rabbit hole for a moment. What if the big bang was the result of a particle sending itself back in time. Meaning all matter in existence is just a clone of the first one. This would be the first faster than light event and would explain how matter is continuously created(if it is). During the first moment of the universe and only one particle in existence, the energy making up that particle would be infinite because no other energy exists. Which would mean more matter exists in the past than in the future, and so past and future continue to move further away from each other. Hurray for paradox waves... or something like that.

Of course I don't believe any of that. I just read 4 pages of mind benders so I had to contribute something. This time travel stuff makes me dizzy.

a reply to: centrifugal

Sorry for the delay, I haven’t realized this thread was still active.

1. Travelling into the past in the same universe would violate the first law of thermodynamics. To simplify, let's say you had a AA battery, a day later you travel back in time and give yourself the battery, now you have two. The next day you do it again and then you have 4. And so on... Now you are effectively creating energy.

Perhaps the First Law of thermodynamics applies only to systems which move futureward in time. Since all systems ever observed by science were all systems moving linearly futureward, we cannot say with certainty that the First Law holds for systems which oscillate up and down the time axis.

2. Infinite amounts of energy does not necessarily mean "all the energy in the universe". As per my first comment, if recursively sending energy into the past was possible that qualifies as infinite amounts of energy. A faster than light engine would just need to continue using the energy before it used it. Of course you still need to get the thing started somehow.

Yes, indeed; I believe you're right.

3. Continuing down this rabbit hole for a moment. What if the big bang was the result of a particle sending itself back in time. Meaning all matter in existence is just a clone of the first one. This would be the first faster than light event and would explain how matter is continuously created(if it is).

Of course! Brilliant thinking. Additionally, to follow your logic, this could come as a candidate to explain the asymmetry of matter and antimatter. Consider this: an antiparticle looks exactly like a (corresponding) normal particle going back in time. That's a fact. What if the original particle was an antiparticle, and as it kept going back in time, it created an infinity of normal particles - causing the universe to fill with matter instead of 50/50 matter/antimatter?

Pure speculation, of course.

Awesome thread. I love reading this stuff! I have to be honest and say I don't get it all. I"m going to enjoy tickling my brain by rereading the thread. Thanks for posting. I hope the discussion continues ...

I agree with OP to be honest. In a sense the future is hidden from the past as it is +1 second out of sync with the past and thus the never see each other. As time progresses at 1 second per seconds.

So moving faster than the speed of light to bend the space time (so to speak) which causes the time line to bend, and then sending a message back (In a straight line may I add) causes it to hit the past which is of course out of sync, but can change the perceived future which hasn't even happened for that reality yet.

I see it as a mix of two theories. The one the OP has suggested and obviously the parallel universe theory. BUT I think there are only 3. Past present and future. Maybe there are thousands, who knows but in my head I see three. But any three can be changed if time travel can be achieved.

I hope other people can see how my crazy mind is working here.

I would really love to see the math, especially to see how certain behaviors are explained. There are several arenas that frequently are overlooked in the "philosophy" of science that become more evident when using a language that is aligned to the universe (math) instead of cultural limitations (words).

It's a great test for large claims as well as keeping ourselves on course scientifically.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Unfortunately I am no mathematician. In fact I am proud to describe the universe in terms which entire cultures can understand - that is, words - instead of the alternative; although I do agree that this method of description makes integration to current the mathematical paradigms a bit more tricky.

a reply to: swanne

I believe that someday cultural language and mathematical language will be one in the same.

For now though, it causes massive amounts of communication errors and bias confirmation rather than any form of usable understanding between beings. That's why math is useful; It cuts through cultural restrictions rather than embedding them further.

Either way, I look forward to hearing more of your philosophies in the future. Keep it up! There are some facets that are rarely explored, I hope you touch on them at some point as I'd be interested in your interpretation.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I must concede that you make a fair point - thank you for the thoughtful input! I will definitively considerate it.

As your current signature says.

originally posted by: capragenus
The one the OP has suggested and obviously the parallel universe theory. BUT I think there are only 3. Past present and future. Maybe there are thousands, who knows but in my head I see three. But any three can be changed if time travel can be achieved.

I see an infinity more than three... A paradoxal event can make loops, and each time it overwrites itself, a new paradox wave forms... And a new alternative universe is generated between the points of overwrite, as the rest of the layer-like alternative uiverses move at the future. The process can generate a thousand, a million, an infinity of new alternative uiverses underneath the layers of the universes already created, and all this going unnoticed by the present, which is forever fleeing away from all these anomalies in the past.

a reply to: swanne

An observer beyond the event horizon of a black hole, observes another person entering the event horizon, the moment that the subject reaches this point, he is frozen in time relative to the point of view of the observer. But to the point of view of the guy entering the hole, he just continues into it at the same speed. As he approached the event horizon the observer would notice that he was slowing down until he finally froze at the relative point on the event horizon. This I assume is the point where in quantum science says all information is saved. But considering the Black hole itself a collapsed star about twenty five times the mass of our sun ,during its collapse to an infinite point, its spin must accelerate it to some speed up too and possibly beyond the speed of light. The Laws of this Universe state that the speed of light cannot be violated, but this law would not apply at the boundary point to another Universe, or even a point in this universe that all rational laws were suspended, like the event horizon, At this stage are we to assume that it turns into a wormhole that actually reverses time, and for the guy who from our prospective remains frozen on the boundary of the event horizon as information. In reality has actually changed from our time line into another. He may have gone into a time loop and re-entered this vast Universe at another point in space time.
The point of infinite density at the centre, might have already ceased to exist, and all that is left is the event horizon as a bubble frozen in time. Anyone approaching these bubbles, would experience time distortions, and whose to say that they exist only at the centre of galaxies they might be smaller and more common that we think. leading to certain types of time slip cases that have already been reported on.

a reply to: Taajsgpm
possibly. it all depends on the act i suppose but at the same time its not just one act making a parallel universe its every act making their own universes and their different acts making other universes infinitely. An infinite amount of universes where everything and anything is possible.like right now a parallel universe was possibly just created because i wrote this reply.

originally posted by: anonentity
This I assume is the point where in quantum science says all information is saved.

Saved yes, but made very chaotic - the mere energy of the event horizon would destroy anything, reducing it into an elemental stream.

The Laws of this Universe state that the speed of light cannot be violated, but this law would not apply at the boundary point to another Universe, or even a point in this universe that all rational laws were suspended, like the event horizon

In other words, you are saying FTL could be possible given the right conditions...

But if the speed of light is to be exceeded, it has to happen somewhere else than the event horizon. See, the faster a black hole spins, the smaller its event horizon shrinks - the two variables are related. The only place where mass energy reaches infinity is at the singularity point - but then, it's possible nothing exists at the singularity according to the Quantum Model, since particles cannot occupy an infinitively small point.

According to Relativity, nothing can go faster than light, period, even inside a black hole. But then, how to test my time travel theory if nothing can go FTL because of energy limitation?

Wormholes should work, though. They are not true FTL but they can still result in time travel.