Popular Mechanics & Science - What Really Happened at Roswell?

originally posted by: data5091
a reply to: mirageman

I think the fact that such an incident as complex and as big as this one, would not all aspects of it make sense, I think, would be a given. There has been so much disinformation and additional information about it all over the past so many decades, how could parts of it not make sense? Personally I believe the headlines were correct originally. The headline that said " Flying Disc Recovered" or whatever the original headline was. The biggest reason I feel this way is because almost immediately after this the military jumped in and demanded a change in the storyline, and offered a different version. A stances they have pretty much taken, and defended ever since.

It certainly is a complex case and I do think there is a lot of disinformation involved. But some of that seems to come from those promoting a recovered UFO and aliens story.

I don't disagree that Marcel really thought they'd found the pieces of a "Flying Disc". But this was 1947 and you have to place everything in the context of those times.

At that time those words literally meant they'd found a disc of some sort. It was not necessarily associated with being anything from outer space or piloted by alien beings. With all the media reports of the previous week or so Blanchard, jumped the gun, probably believing his base would be first to parade one of these strange discs to media.

In 1947 there was no history of UFOs, like we have now, to relate these sightings to. The actual alien stories didn't start until the late 1980s/1990s when people like Glenn Dennis appeared.

So yes something was covered up at the time but was it simply a Mogul balloon or did the cover-up go a hell of a lot deeper?

First off OP...this was very well written and very easy to follow. I appreciate work like this! This is a fascinating thread and the kind I love to read about.

One of my beliefs is the Roswell incident was a plan of deception by the Germans. I firmly believe the work Hitler was doing in creating these discs was a part of his plan. But I am open to all and any ideas on this.

originally posted by: UnderKingsPeak
my opinion is the 509th were not naive,my grandfather being one of them.
He was an atomic weapon carrying B29 pilot stationed there in 1947.
He was one of the smartest people I've known.

It's also my opinion Popular Science Nat Geo The History Channel
are all media fronts for the NSA. I'd believe what they say about UFO's
about as much as their 9/11 reports.

My grandfather denied the existence of ET craft every time in 38 years of asking.
That is until 2 years before he died. When asked that time all he did was say
"do you really want to know?" I said um yeah...obviously.
and then he simply nodded solemnly .This way he never said it.

I really don't know if Popular Science is a front for the NSA. At the time of the articles quoted I think it was owned by Time Warner. It hardly ever covers the UFO topic so I am not sure why the NSA would have any great interest in it? Being the publication it is I wasn't expecting to see anything but a very conservative approach to Roswell anyway.

As for Nat Geo and History Channel. Well Nat Geo has generally presented a very hard-line sceptics view to UFOs. Although across the pond we did get UFOs the Untold Stories which was a much more open minded series on UFO sightings in Europe and in total contrast to the appalling 'Chasing UFOs'.

History Channel has presented some really good open ended documentaries like 'UFO Files' and even some episodes of 'UFO Hunters'. So again I don't see the NSA's fingerprints there. The Channel seems more intent on producing programs about a bunch of overweight Pawnbrokers and Storage Lock-up dippers these days.

But it sounds like your grandfather maybe did know something. And I will accept your judgement on that.

originally posted by: HawkeyeNation

One of my beliefs is the Roswell incident was a plan of deception by the Germans. I firmly believe the work Hitler was doing in creating these discs was a part of his plan. But I am open to all and any ideas on this.

The main article in Popular Mechanics did touch on the German angle. As we now know many German scientists were relocated to New Mexico after the war and put on the US payroll. Not only that there are some who believe the Fuhrer escaped from Berlin and ended up in South America. In fact there is some circumstantial evidence that suggests so.

One thing that has always mystified me though is that no photos of the debris field were taken at the Foster Ranch. Did Marcel (or Cavitt) not take a camera with them for their investigation? Nor are there any photos of the debris when it arrived at Roswell AAF.

The only photos we do have (that have ever been made public) from the whole episode appear to be the ones taken at Fort Worth.



I know this was a different time but this still strikes me as a little unusual.

a reply to: mirageman

"Crash" would be an awful lot more plausible than wreck, given the curved first letter. Cant believe they didnt see that

a reply to: mirageman

I'll repeat what I said in a post a year ago in regards to this letter:



This is the cropped word "Victims" in Photoshop with an emboss filter added. The first letter actually looks like an F not a V. The spacing between the first two letters is consistent with an FI rather than a VI also. The point where the word is, is fairly flat on the page as well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me, the first two lines below read:

AND THE FINDING OF THE (?)DEBRIS/WRECK(?) YOU CONNECTED TO THE
............ AT FORT WORTH, TEX.



The obscured line could read:

"(?)BALLOON LAUNCH or LAUNCH(?) AT FORT WORTH, TEX." Or something similar.

Which would be logical since RAWIN targets(and Mogul) were launched at the Fort Worth Army Air Field at the time.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

This is the cropped word "Victims" in Photoshop with an emboss filter added. The first letter actually looks like an F not a V. The spacing between the first two letters is consistent with an FI rather than a VI also. The point where the word is, is fairly flat on the page as well.

That's as good an analysis as any.

When the interpreters words were placed underneath (see below) then it also tricks your brain to automatically thinking of the word "victim" .




And Ridhya I also agree that 'crash' would probably be more probable than 'wreck'.

marcel was the INTELLIGENCE officer of the only active atomic bombing squadron in the world at that time. that means he could recognize and identify almost anything that was flying at that time. especially our own stuff as well as the soviets! that said, the odds of him mis identifying a weather balloon that was supposedly launched from his own base are exceptionally high.

and remember the old saying? the more you lie, the bigger it grows?

"we have a flying disc!"

"nope, it was a weather balloon!"

"nope! it was a TOP SECRET weather balloon!"

"NOPE! it was a top secret weather balloon that we were test dropping dummies from!"

Roswell the Missing Years (1947 -1978)

Consider this a sort of addition to the opening post because it’s always generally considered that the Roswell UFO story died in July 1947. However that’s not quite true as we’ve seen earlier in this thread.



The Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 by Ted Bleacher from 1968 featured a write up on the Roswell story : Full PDF Download link


There are also a number of other times when the ‘Roswell’ story cropped up during its years in the wilderness.



Flying Saucers on the Attack by Harold Wilkins, 1954 – page 71 :

"Close to the place where the first atomic bomb was tested, a rancher in Roswell, New Mexico, U.S.A. said, in July 1947, to have found a flying saucer. It landed on his ranch, and was inspected by officers of the 509th atomic bomb group of the 8th U.S. Air Force, who sent it to a ‘higher quarter.’

This reported find followed a report from Dr. C. J. Zohn, guided missile expert of the U.S. Naval Laboratory, that he and two other scientists had sighted a flying saucer near White Sands, New Mexico, a proving ground to which public access is prohibited.

Down came U.S. Army authorities who declared this was merely a weather balloon; despite the plain statement of Mr. Ivan R. Tannehill, weather bureau chief forecaster, that it was unlikely that this mysterious object speeding through the skies at a speed above the rate of transmission of sound waves, could have been a weather balloon. He pointed out that weather balloons have been in use for many years."

Flying Saucer Review (Spring 1955 – First Issue)

In the very first issue of the British publication there is a story from Hughie Green. Green was a British/Canadian TV presenter, who was taking a solo trip by car from Hollywood to Philadelphia during the summer of 1947. He recalled that whilst driving across the USA he heard numerous radio reports that a flying saucer had crashed in New Mexico and that the United States army were moving in to investigate. After promises that the story would be updated he then recalls everything went silent about 250 miles out of Philadelphia:

“A commentator interrupted a programme to make the announcement that a saucer had crashed in New Mexico, and that the Army were moving in to investigate. Later the programme was interrupted again, and quite a few details given. Several news flashes about the incident, from various radio stations, followed. The last I heard was just before reaching Philadelphia. The announcer promised further bulletins. None followed. When I got to Philadelphia I bought all the newspapers I could lay my hands on. But not one carried the story, and questions at the radio station just drew a blank. It’s mystified me ever since”

Whilst this seems to be a very rare, if sketchy, recollection just 8 years after the Roswell incident the article goes on to state.

“Do the Americans have a flying saucer in their possession? Reports from America suggest that the US has more than one. More than one or parts of one at Wright Patterson Field……Flying Saucer enthusiasts all over the world believe there is some truth in the story but that it is being as carefully guarded as any atomic or military secret for fear of causing public panic.”

There is an old thread about Hughie Green Peripheral Witness to Roswell by yours truly.




Frank Edwards UFO Lectures (New York, April 28th 1956)

Speaking to the UFO research group Civilian Saucer Intelligence, Edwards informed the crowd :

"... at Roswell a farmer reported that he saw something strike a mountainside and crash. According to what I was told, they threw troops in a circle all around that place, and would let nobody in for five days. Finally they came up with a picture of a man holding a little crumpled kite with aluminium foil on it --- a radar target --- they said this was it --- believe it or not. There have been many other rumours since then of saucers having crashed. I don't know whether there's any truth in them."

UFOs - Serious Business by Frank Edwards 1966 page 76:

A similar tale from the Edwards but expanded a little for his book.

"There are such difficult cases as the rancher near Roswell, New Mexico, who phoned the Sheriff that a blazing disc-shaped object had passed over his house at low altitude and had crashed and burned on a hillside within view of the house. The Sheriff called the military; the military came on the double quick.

Newsmen were not permitted in the area. A week later, however, the government released a photograph of a service man holding up a box kite with an aluminium disc about the size of a large pie pan dangling from the bottom of the kite.

This, the official report explained, was a device borne aloft on the kite and used to test radar gear by bouncing the signals off the pie pan. And this, we were told, was the sort of thing that had so excited the rancher.

We were not told, however, how the alleged kite caught fire—nor why the military cordoned off the area while they inspected the wreckage of a burned-out box kite with a non-inflammable pie pan tied to it."

Saga Magazine (Winter 1974 edition)

In New Mexico a woman (subsequently identified as Lydia Sleppy) with a responsible position received a call from a station manager. He had been checking out reports of a UFO which had crashed in a field and was trying to track down the rumour that pieces of the object were supposedly stored in a local barn.

In his excited call to the newsroom, the station manager verified the UFO crash report, and also claimed to have seen metallic pieces of the UFO being carried away to a waiting Air Force plane destined to Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
As the woman was typing the fantastic news item over the teletype to their other two stations, a line appeared in the middle of her text, tapped in from somewhere, with the official order, "Do not continue this transmission!"

continues below >>>

It would appear from these stories that there was an element of secrecy over Roswell. They all appear suggestible of a military cover-up without mention of dead (or even live) aliens.

Of course the “other” UFO crash story from Aztec, New Mexico in 1948 has not enjoyed anywhere near as much fascination or notoriety as Roswell .Yet many elements of the Aztec story appear to have crossed over into the Roswell mythology.

It seems to me that there was a cover-up by US military. Maybe it was only to conceal the existence of a top secret program to monitor the Soviets. Meanwhile a certain level of both paranoia and excitement was gripping the United States over the recent growth of sighting of flying discs.

Mac Brazel noticed a pile of debris on the Foster Ranch sometime in late June or early July 1947 without giving it too much thought. However he then hears of a reward for anyone retrieving part of a flying disc. (Remember this was 1947 in small town USA . A time when people had no electricity, no TV, no telephone and their main source of news was battery operated radio, newsprint and local gossip!)

When a report from Brazel came into the RAAF base, Marcel and his boss Blanchard had already a preconceived idea that they would be announcing to the world their capture of a “flying disc”. A severe case of ‘premature speculation’. And so it came to pass. Marcel was convinced and his boss couldn’t wait to break the news. The press release was authorised and the Roswell Daily Record duly noted and reported on their capture of a flying disc.

Ramey and the guys at Fort Worth had other ideas. Certainly their Mogul program could not be revealed.

The question is was there anything else they were trying to hide?

a reply to: mirageman

There's actually a little trick you can use to figure out these 'high strangeness events'.

First you set up two paradigms. One of them you list possible explanations from among prosaic, normal, or known operational concepts.

The other one you list the possible 'paranormal' explanations and try to find a way to have them make more sense than an ordinary explanation.

You sort of 'blind' yourself to one of two opposing explanations and see what pops up.

You hit on one of them (explained a couple years ago, IIRC) and that was Brazel finding out about the reward and going in and trying to propose an ET event to collect the money. It explains his comment upon leaving. He unwittingly stumbled on a TS project. He did not think 'silver debris and paper and rubber' would be TS. (the materials weren't but the purpose was).

Faced with a conundrum, the Base commander pulled a 'look over there', hoping to ensnare the Soviets in a belief of ET technology, and like the CIA did later, used a convenient 'UFO/ET' cover story.

Was there 'something else' being shoved under the rug at R, NM? Could we also have been test flying some kind of Military craft which can't be disclosed even 60+ years later? Maybe.

Going through the problem this way, there's no need to collate the 'other' paranormal list, whose items are just improbable 'outliers'.

a reply to: mirageman

The facts that I go on are irrefutable.

In July 1947 William Hugh Blanchard ordered a press release stating that The AAF had recovered a Flying Disc. This can not be argued.

The US air force finally changes its story from a Weather Balloon to a Mogal Balloon, stating that the latter was Top Secret at the time. This can not be argued.

Both the Weather Balloon to a Mogal Balloon consisted of Tin Foil, Balsa Wood, Neoprene and String. This can not be argued.

So a colonel in the US AAF who is in charge of the most elite bomber squadron in the world in 1947 confuses Tin Foil, Balsa Wood, Neoprene and String with something that flew in from outer space and ends his courier at stated below.

General William Hugh Blanchard (February 6, 1916 – May 31, 1966) was a United States Air Force officer who attained the rank of four-star general and served as Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force from 1965 to 1966.

My conclusion is that something very unusual happened back then, and that they are still lying about it to his day.

a reply to: MAC269 and to: Maverick7

Well I've enjoyed a good Halloween night out with the family here in the UK and hope everyone in North America, Ireland (and wherever else it's celebrated) did too.

Thanks MAC269 and Maverick7 for your posts.

Both of them point to the very core of the Roswell mystery. And that's exactly where I'll leave it.

a reply to: mirageman

A thread dealing wth the real-ity of the Roswell "event" is rare and appreciated because no matter how much the fantasy is accepted as the reality, the facts will always defeat the fantasy. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of humans can be mentally manipulated to accept even the most fantastic tale as true.

There is a plethora of books written about Roswell especially for the gullible because the authors know they have a ready-made market plus the notoriety that follows the more successful one. No one knows this better than Stanton Friedman who unashamedly has made it an art. The list of similar authors is familiar to all members of this forum who will use them as reference sources!

One author and one book stand out as providing the best evidence against the failing memories of the few principals connected with the saga. The author Karl T. Pflock and the book is "Roswell : Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe"

"UFO researcher Pflock has written the definitive book on facts and fantasies surrounding the now-familiar series of 1947 events at Roswell, N. Mex. . . . Pflock offers exhaustive research, spanning eight years, a fascinating probe that has transformed him into a skeptic. . . . Assembling formerly classified documents, along with 1947 United Press wire transmissions, weather data and 28 witness affidavits, Pflock attempts to refute past 'witness' tales, expose claims made by other books on this subject and prove the U.S. government has no physical evidence. He has succeeded at this in a major fashion, creating an unusual and authoritative study. . . . Many who come to it will be persuaded that it cracks the mystery, wipes the slate clean and exposes the hullabaloo about Roswell as nothing more than a fabulous fairy tale. . . . Reviews, controversy and word-of-mouth will prompt both believers and nonbelievers to seek out this title."
--Publishers Weekly
For over fifty years an incident near Roswell, New Mexico, has sparked the imaginations of UFO enthusiasts. Did the military recover a crashed "flying saucer" there, along with several extraterrestrial bodies? Has the government gone to great lengths to hide the evidence? Over time these speculations have reached the status of unquestionable truths in the minds of many ufologists.

In this definitive study of the Roswell incident, longtime UFO researcher Karl T. Pflock-who is convinced that some UFO reports are real alien sightings-concludes, after an exhaustive investigation, that no alien craft or bodies were ever found at Roswell. Pflock admits at the outset that he too once strongly believed there might be something to the Roswell alien stories, and he describes how he then came to discover the whole truth. Using formerly classified records he proves that the U.S. government has absolutely no physical evidence of aliens, shows how critical weather data completely refute key claims of Roswell believers, and explains why the case now rises and falls on the testimony of just one witness, who cleverly manipulated leading investigators and continues to do so today.

Pflock's intensive research and access to once-classified documents-including facsimilies of important formerly classified documents, 28 witness affidavits, and the entire Pratt-Marcel interview transcript-make this book must reading even for UFO buffs-believers and skeptics alike- who feel they know everything about Roswell."

originally posted by: MAC269
a reply to: mirageman

The facts that I go on are irrefutable.

In July 1947 William Hugh Blanchard ordered a press release stating that The AAF had recovered a Flying Disc. This can not be argued.

The US air force finally changes its story from a Weather Balloon to a Mogal Balloon, stating that the latter was Top Secret at the time. This can not be argued.

Both the Weather Balloon to a Mogal Balloon consisted of Tin Foil, Balsa Wood, Neoprene and String. This can not be argued.

So a colonel in the US AAF who is in charge of the most elite bomber squadron in the world in 1947 confuses Tin Foil, Balsa Wood, Neoprene and String with something that flew in from outer space and ends his courier at stated below.

General William Hugh Blanchard (February 6, 1916 – May 31, 1966) was a United States Air Force officer who attained the rank of four-star general and served as Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force from 1965 to 1966.

My conclusion is that something very unusual happened back then, and that they are still lying about it to his day.

Roswell classification types (proposed)
o Very Unusual
o Highly Unusual
o High Strangeness

All possible appellations wrt to Roswell. But none of them REQUIRES a non-terrestrial visitation, on-planet, in real physical form, a 'craft' with non-terrestrial beings manually "flying" it in an atmospheric type craft (like an old sailing vessel) that can 'crash' and not disintegrate (for security reasons).

WE now have nano-tech, RPVs, self-destruct applications, and remotely sensing and recording capabilities (like Google maps, airplane view), and we are not even remotely capable of space-faring in real presence (full-size astronauts) in our freaking Solar System. Come ON.

There are NO full-sized extra-System (outside their own sun) space-faring non-hominoid non-Terra (Earth) creatures coming here, now (in the last 100 years, say).

Is it possible there are magical explanations? (Time travelers, 6th dimensional beings, Earth-is-a-hologram events) Possibly.

Is a full scale ETH impossible (as an explanation), no, but it's down in the 1:14,907,351,000,000,000 range, like winning the mega-million lottery twice.

Proof (or evidence) for my hypothesis? See: Rare Earth, by Ward and Brownlee, and see the Netflix series (lectures) Life In Our Universe S1E4 and E5. And they have not included all the "terms" needed.

The NetFlix calls the estimate of Intel-life in our Galaxy is between 3 and 30 Earth/Intelligence possible scenarios. It does not take into account the term that they can come here, just that they exist in place.

Add terms for 'can find us', 'are still alive and we are still alive when they get here' (time confluence factor), and have the 'drive to explore', and are not so different (Hive-mind, etc.). The scope of 'communication' is a circle of 25 ly. (closest 100 star systems).

The Arecibo targeted signal, based on the product of two primes could not even be deciphered by humans who were shown it.

Arecibo decoded image (original was binary)

So it's not really odd that we have seen no signals (if advanced planet-bound ET use laser or coherent light based communication not radio waves)

Too bad someone can't go into the future and send us a copy of The Galactic Wikipedia from the year 22,010 BC. The we'd know.