Jesus Vs Yahweh sorta

originally posted by: Rodinus
If Jesus came back now I think that modern day technology (even dating back from the 60s) would have or could recorded/record an event no?

But then it would not be a future event,would it? It would be an event which had already taken place.
You were demanding proof of a FUTURE event, knowing that to be impossible.

a reply to: borntowatch


So to summarize: Yahweh is love. He created humanity in his image with free-will, but wanted to punish humanity for using free-will, but out of his love, he decided to become a perfect human and sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself, which was really no salvation at all since he'll be back to punish everyone.

This is a twisted theology which has nothing to do with love.

GOD is LOVE and allows us to do what we want, but there consequences for actions - NOT punishments. If you throw a rock in the sky and it falls back down and hit you - it is simply a consequence of an action: throwing the rock. It has nothing to do with a "punishment" from God.

God is Love, and is kind to the unthankful and the evil (Luke 6:35).

Thank you for clearing that up and helping me as apparently I could not be bothered...

You would make a great judge ;-)

Kindest respects

Rodinus

a reply to: graphuto

a reply to: borntowatch

So as we read the Old Testament we see a God administering justice. Killing many, is that good or bad.
Lets look at ISIL, would many be concerned if God smote the members of ISIL from the face of the earth?

You can go back and read my threads, especially the last few, to see that we do not know the deeper story. Yahweh is not God, but the Son of God. Elohim is God. Yahweh lost that title in Chapter 4 after the fall. This is when men began to worship him rather than the Father. Use the names of God Bible to see the various voices come out in the decisions.

As for ISIL, we can compare this to several key decisions Yahweh made along the way. In most cases, his decisions were not simply isolated to punishing kings. Typically, his decisions forced thousands of innocent people to suffer his punishment of the Kings involved with the sin. His judgments rarely focused on the harmony and peace of the people, but on HIS will to be worshiped and followed.

The key to this is to know two facts:

1) Yahweh created the Snake that torments him. This is the case for all of us in this life. We empower our own lower nature by our thoughts, words and deeds that affect others. Yahweh had to be fully human eventually. We must be fully God eventually.

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made. He asked the woman, “Did Elohim really say, ‘You must never eat the fruit of any tree in the garden’?”

2) Yahweh was told this:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

7 Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase.”

What humans shed the blood of the Son of God and why did they shed it? Yahweh caused the bloodshed. He paid the price. Elohim spoke here in this passage, not Yahweh. Yahweh spoke in Chapter 8 and promised that the ground would be blessed, but that evil mankind would suffer great toil. His promise was toil. Elohim's promise was the Rainbow, or all nations receiving blessing.

What did Yahweh choose for himself? ONE nation.

Read my past threads on this topic.

Mankind has never been the problem. The snake is the problem and this is Yahweh's lower nature harming creation. Ezekiel 28 outlines this.

In the end, we are Yahweh and he is us. There is no division. We judge him and we judge ourselves. The root of the trouble is in Him and us equally.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Job's simple acknowledgement reveals three secrets. 1) Job will be resurrected into life again (Baptism) to see the Redeemer. 2)Job knew the identity of the Redeemer. 3) Job knew the root of the trouble was in the Redeemer first. Don't hound him about it thought. The nature of Yahweh was clear to Job firsthand as he experienced his torment from the hands of a bet with the Snake.

Job required no sacrifice in the last chapter. Everyone else did. Knowing the Redeemer's identity gives us mercy and grace. Why? We know that no sin can be accounted as long as we forgive our enemy. Our enemy knows the same. None of us are free until we learn to kill the snake. Yahweh must be fully human. So must we. Once we are, we can overcome what that means.

First, judge correctly. Second, judge not lest ye be judged.

originally posted by: graphuto
Oh snap, is that another Bible believing and understanding Christian I see in the house? Praise the lord. We're a dying breed.

What do you think of my post just before this one?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Yes, a God who condones (or did at any time) rape, slavery, murder, human sacrifice, and has and does manipulate the free will of his creations is totally just and worthy of my praise and worship. If I don't worship him he could have it so any number of those horrible things happen to me, then send me to hell afterwards. I'm totally feeling the love of a father, an abusive one.

The Father (Elohim) made the promise of the rainbow (nations receiving blessing). The Son selected one nation to bless. When the blood was accounted to the Son on the cross, he paid for the errors he made. We should respect the Son and look back to the one that made the promise to the nations. The Rainbow is still in the sky. The day of the Lord came, but not like he thought it would. God had other plans. Which Father are you speaking of?

originally posted by: Rodinus

Thank you for your personal explanations.

This is not solid and concrete proof that Jesus is coming back.

Why do you believe he/she is coming back?

People have been saying for hundreds and hundreds of years that Jesus is coming back??? (AND IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED...)

Sorry if I am mistaken... but I personally and nearly everyone that I know has/have not seen any valid and proved sign yet... have you... and if so could you please elaborate?

It is easy to recite verses from any religious document (ONLY WRITTEN WORDS)... where is the PROOF?

Up until now, EVERY SINGLE person that says that Jesus is coming or whatever in accordance with religion HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE SOLID PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinusby]

No you are right, there is no solid and concrete proof that would satisfy you, I didnt write this thread as a statement of proof.
I wrote the thread to explain how and why I see Jesus being the same God as YHWH.
Something in this forum that is questioned. I think/thought my explanation may help casual observers see the link and reasons why the two characters of God seem in opposition, when in fact they are identical.

No proof, sorry. just prophecy and eye witness testimony written in Gods word, the bible.

a reply to: borntowatch

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: borntowatch

You can go back and read my threads, especially the last few, to see that we do not know the deeper story. Yahweh is not God, but the Son of God. Elohim is God. Yahweh lost that title in Chapter 4 after the fall. This is when men began to worship him rather than the Father. Use the names of God Bible to see the various voices come out in the decisions.

As for ISIL, we can compare this to several key decisions Yahweh made along the way. In most cases, his decisions were not simply isolated to punishing kings. Typically, his decisions forced thousands of innocent people to suffer his punishment of the Kings involved with the sin. His judgments rarely focused on the harmony and peace of the people, but on HIS will to be worshiped and followed.

The key to this is to know two facts:

1) Yahweh created the Snake that torments him. This is the case for all of us in this life. We empower our own lower nature by our thoughts, words and deeds that affect others. Yahweh had to be fully human eventually. We must be fully God eventually.

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made. He asked the woman, “Did Elohim really say, ‘You must never eat the fruit of any tree in the garden’?”

2) Yahweh was told this:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

7 Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase.”

What humans shed the blood of the Son of God and why did they shed it? Yahweh caused the bloodshed. He paid the price. Elohim spoke here in this passage, not Yahweh. Yahweh spoke in Chapter 8 and promised that the ground would be blessed, but that evil mankind would suffer great toil. His promise was toil. Elohim's promise was the Rainbow, or all nations receiving blessing.

What did Yahweh choose for himself? ONE nation.

Read my past threads on this topic.

Mankind has never been the problem. The snake is the problem and this is Yahweh's lower nature harming creation. Ezekiel 28 outlines this.

In the end, we are Yahweh and he is us. There is no division. We judge him and we judge ourselves. The root of the trouble is in Him and us equally.

Job's simple acknowledgement reveals three secrets. 1) Job will be resurrected into life again (Baptism) to see the Redeemer. 2)Job knew the identity of the Redeemer. 3) Job knew the root of the trouble was in the Redeemer first. Don't hound him about it thought. The nature of Yahweh was clear to Job firsthand as he experienced his torment from the hands of a bet with the Snake.

Job required no sacrifice in the last chapter. Everyone else did. Knowing the Redeemer's identity gives us mercy and grace. Why? We know that no sin can be accounted as long as we forgive our enemy. Our enemy knows the same. None of us are free until we learn to kill the snake. Yahweh must be fully human. So must we. Once we are, we can overcome what that means.

First, judge correctly. Second, judge not lest ye be judged.

I totally disagree with your supposition, hence my thread.
I am happy to disagree and you are welcome to your opinion.

I believe as a matter of faith that Jesus is part of the Trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We disagree, lets move forward accepting our differences

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: borntowatch

So are you saying that nobody loved the God of the old Testament, nobody at all.

Here is a clue, Psalms of King David.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Rodinus

Thank you for your personal explanations.

This is not solid and concrete proof that Jesus is coming back.

Why do you believe he/she is coming back?

People have been saying for hundreds and hundreds of years that Jesus is coming back??? (AND IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED...)

Sorry if I am mistaken... but I personally and nearly everyone that I know has/have not seen any valid and proved sign yet... have you... and if so could you please elaborate?

It is easy to recite verses from any religious document (ONLY WRITTEN WORDS)... where is the PROOF?

Up until now, EVERY SINGLE person that says that Jesus is coming or whatever in accordance with religion HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE SOLID PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinusby]

No you are right, there is no solid and concrete proof that would satisfy you, I didnt write this thread as a statement of proof.
I wrote the thread to explain how and why I see Jesus being the same God as YHWH.
Something in this forum that is questioned. I think/thought my explanation may help casual observers see the link and reasons why the two characters of God seem in opposition, when in fact they are identical.

No proof, sorry. just prophecy and eye witness testimony written in Gods word, the bible.

Thank you BTW.

Kindest respects

Rodinus

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Yes, a God who condones (or did at any time) rape, slavery, murder, human sacrifice, and has and does manipulate the free will of his creations is totally just and worthy of my praise and worship. If I don't worship him he could have it so any number of those horrible things happen to me, then send me to hell afterwards. I'm totally feeling the love of a father, an abusive one.

Well done, though some will sadly never break free from the heavy programmings initiated and are not privy that the ordained prophecies are being self fulfilled by the very same 'royal elite' ruling serpentine led bloodlines whom assembled and distorted the scriptures connected to these bloodthirsty pre-Sumerian 'gods of old'. The scribes were also aware of the cyclical catastrophes that occurred and the cosmic signs that preceded them outlined in Revelation destined to repeat.... Combine that with the advanced technology that too can and will be utilised against humanity towards further 'signs and wonders', then it is easy to see how easily humanity can be manipulated by the so called 'divine' imitators, always at work in snaring, especially under the guise of goodness and love.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: borntowatch


So to summarize: Yahweh is love. He created humanity in his image with free-will, but wanted to punish humanity for using free-will, but out of his love, he decided to become a perfect human and sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself, which was really no salvation at all since he'll be back to punish everyone.

This is a twisted theology which has nothing to do with love.

GOD is LOVE and allows us to do what we want, but there consequences for actions - NOT punishments. If you throw a rock in the sky and it falls back down and hit you - it is simply a consequence of an action: throwing the rock. It has nothing to do with a "punishment" from God.

God is Love, and is kind to the unthankful and the evil (Luke 6:35).

No and yes
God is love and gave us free will to use, not abuse.

a reply to: borntowatch

No and yes
God is love and gave us free will to use, not abuse.

Then it isn't free-will.

free - not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.

a reply to: borntowatch

Yes Jehovah was God, is God. Jehovah gave mankind the laws, not only did He give us the laws, He carried out the punishments against those who transgressed, broke the laws.

I don't know about "mankind, but Jehovah supposedly gave Moses laws, for the Israelite to follow and carry out. The Israelite were the ones that carried out the punishment of those who transgressed, broke the laws, too, not Jehovah.

It was human hands that picked up the stones to kill young lovers (fornicators), and adulterers ( forbidden lovers) and friends and family members for considering the theology of other cultures (strange gods).

It was human hands that laid siege to cities and took the booty for themselves, including their young women for sexual slaves, not Jehovah.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: borntowatch

No and yes
God is love and gave us free will to use, not abuse.

Then it isn't free-will.

free - not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.

Yes it is free will, to operate within or outside of the law.God gave us freewill and also the law, we operate by choice to act within or outside the law

Maybe I dont understand your position in its entirety.
Even in Eden, we had the choice between obeying and disobeying.

Disobeying the law brings judgement and exclusion. Judgement.

originally posted by: windword

I don't know about "mankind, but Jehovah supposedly gave Moses laws, for the Israelite to follow and carry out. The Israelite were the ones that carried out the punishment of those who transgressed, broke the laws, too, not Jehovah.

It was human hands that picked up the stones to kill young lovers (fornicators), and adulterers ( forbidden lovers) and friends and family members for considering the theology of other cultures (strange gods).

It was human hands that laid siege to cities and took the booty for themselves, including their young women for sexual slaves, not Jehovah.

Yes God doesnt operate outside of humanity very often.
Just like civil courts carry out judgement, God gave Israel Judges and Kings.
I dont see an issue with your statement.

The whole point of the Old Testament is not to say how wonderful the tribe of Israel was, it explained how poorly Israel acted, most of the time.
The Old Testament makes Israel look evil, except very few redeeming actions by very few people, occasionally.

a reply to: Rodinus

you must be bored.
it can be a fun way to waste ones time by coming into a thread as such asking for proof of Jesus and his return while knowing full well it is a matter of faith and that Jesus is just as likely to be repling to you as he is to being a fictional character. Since we are wasting time here then let's start a list of proof that the heathens will accept as absolute proof that he is real and has returned to save our sorry asses.

originally posted by: borntowatch
So this "evil" God sends His Son Jesus to carry the burden of our own personnel sin, why, because justice must be served.

So does that sound like an "evil" God?

Well, yeah. I kinda does sound like an "evil" god. If I send my daughter to be flogged in the town square to spare them my wrath... yes, that would make me an evil person. A sadistic, cruel, and twisted person.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Is justice something that we as individuals dont want

Justice in a 1st-world democratic nation with a constitution in place? Yeah, I want that kind of justice. However, the "justice" you are talking about is no different than Shariah law or ISIS. That's not justice.

I'm sorry but I've yet to hear a Christian successfully consolidate YHWH and Jesus without dragging Jesus through the mud. To say that Jesus is YHWH is to say that Jesus commanded his flock to rape, murder, and infanticide entire peoples. I would never say that to a Christian. Instead, I would rather tell a Christian that I don't believe that Jesus and YHWH are the same. At all.

a reply to: borntowatch

Yes Jehovah was God, is God. Jehovah gave mankind the laws, not only did He give us the laws, He carried out the punishments against those who transgressed, broke the laws.

Not according to the New Testament.
The "god" YHWH was really a representation in text for the work of angels who served the office of a local, national deity for the people later represented by the Jews.