When you fight to change society, you must have peace when it collapses

a reply to: grandmakdw

The plot that some might not see is that the coprate state wants to replace existing expensive Labour rates With cheep Labour rates. That can be done by employing educated poor imagrants or educating poor imagrants.

a reply to: grandmakdw

OP can't disagree with anything you wrote here. Man that's rather unfortunate too.

a reply to: spy66

I think national borders are being erased, we just don't know it yet. As far as cheap labor goes, robotics will provide for that far more efficiently than humans at any pay scale.

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

a reply to: grandmakdw

No. I am not hoping for utopia. What I am hoping for is that the most motivated, selfish, awful bastards the planet has to offer, will kill one another off, leaving enough space and resource behind that those who remain to the Earth afterward, will be able to live in a natural enough way to make those negative things you mention less of a problem than they are today. Living a natural life, out in the world, rather than in the burning husks of cities and suburbia, will be a must, because societal collapse will naturally mean the collapse of infrastructure which serves pre-packed food to the mindless.

Surviving will rely on the ability of people to go and find their food in the real world, in the natural way, and when that becomes a reality, there will be no time for people to get into the sort of trouble you imagine, because they will be busy looking to keep themselves alive, rather than ensuring that their enemies are dead.

If that is what has to happen, in order for freedom to come about, then I for one would not scorn it. I would prefer that we make our way to a better kind of government, a better kind of society without the necessity for such a thing, but can you really see that on the cards?

originally posted by: hurdygurdy
a reply to: spy66

I think national borders are being erased, we just don't know it yet. As far as cheap labor goes, robotics will provide for that far more efficiently than humans at any pay scale.

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

True, In the future a lot of Labour will be replaced by even more Electronics, Other Technology and robotics.

But there is a few Fields that still would have to be manned. And that is maintenance sector, sevice sector, and Medical sector. In the future these will Count for 90% of common education.

a reply to: spy66

Yep, I can foresee the need for human services to be performed exclusively by, humans. Right now those types of jobs aren't high priority, or at least the pay scale doesn't reflect it.

If you've ever been inside a nursing home you'll notice a lot of immigrants working there. They barely make a living wage, but the nursing homes and the pharma industry are making a killing by depleting the life savings of the elderly.

Many of these low paid workers are a true gift to the residents because they came from a culture that value their elders. Not like in this country, where the elderly are perceived as a liability to society while at the same time an asset to line corporate pockets with. That's just my observation anyway.

Maybe in some future reality, workers will be paid commensurate with the amount of human value they provide society, while less important tasks such as mass producing and selling "stuff" will be performed by robots and other technology.

a reply to: hurdygurdy


The future of humanity of the western world will not be a society built on consumption and technology like it is today. The polarisation of Power and wealth is changing towards Asia. The middle class of the western world, will in the future have to change Places With the rising middle class of Asia. There is not enought reasources and wealth to share between them.

I am absolutely at peace with the fall

I have prepared myself to give up everything

Mother, children, family, myself, and all of you

For the chance to change this equation

From negative to positive

Double

1. The unemployment rate and underemployment rates remain abysmal after decades of corporate profiteering, but 40% unemployment is ridiculous. I challenge you to provide a valid reasonable source for your number.

Even using the harshest, most conservative methods to measure the unemployment rate comes out between 12 and 14%.

Forbes Magazine

www.cnbc.com - Whats the real Unemployment Rate?

2. Government efforts to set us apart pale in comparison to what the corporate media bombards the public with day-after-day, hour-after-hour, pick your poison, right-wing, left-wing. There is no doubt that the so-called independent media/blogosphere has been co-opted.

3. I live 2 blocks from the CDC. Believe me, there is enough stuff in one vial over there to wipe out half the US population without even trying. If "They" wanted to be rid of us, they wouldn't have to be coy about it.

4. Somewhere between 90 and 95 percent of the population is heterosexual according to multiple studies. I think you guys have a safe majority in place. Besides that, as opposed to the counter-example of homosexual Americans being blasted and lambasted every day, I can't think of the last time I heard a sermon about the "evils of straight sex" (odd, when actually according to the Bible, there are so many more opportunities for heterosexuals to sin ... )

5. Somewhere between 75 and 85% of the American population identifies as Christian. Every year 4000 new churches are opened. Supposed Christian victimization has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas that gets floated.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Glad to see someone is hopelessly optimistic.

Can't you see the cultural derision of heterosexuals? Marriage rates have dropped through the floor. The joys of childlessness is in every magazine. The heterosexual in the media is bumbling and stupid, only the gay are truly hip and cool.
Open your eyes to the message that permeates Hollywood.

It is not just Christians that are portrayed in ALL media as bigoted, stupid, homophobic, and intolerant. Anti-Semitism is so rampant in the "right circles" of government as to be nearly Nazi-esk. It is having faith at all that is ridiculed constantly and consistently by the media and the governing elite.
You are the one who is blind to it because you are probably one of the people who make fun of people of faith as bigoted, stupid, homophobic and intolerant, perpetuating the myth and thus the deepening hatred of people of faith.

Racism is egged on openly by the Obama administration, always defending one side over the other, regardless of what the truth ends up being, regardless of the reality that more black people kill black people than anyone else.

The Obama administration bashes rich people constantly and consistently as the root of all problems in the US. While attending $30,000 a plate fund raisers and taking money from those they claim are causing all the ills in the US.

The surveillance society that has been ramped up in multiples over the past 6 years is frighteningly close to a 1984 society.

Your optimism unfortunately does not match reality.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You really don't know me very well if you find me optimistic.

Do I see a reaction on the part of some to the continued efforts, mostly among fundamentalist-Christian inspired politics, to stop the cultural trend toward equality in marriage and in regard to same-sex relationships? Sure sometimes. The cultural winds have changed, and those relatively few folks who are still wishing for the outdated ways of doing things are too easy to target with derision.

But, let's be real, there is no uniform attack on heterosexuals. Changes in marriage rates are an attack from a pro-gay side of things, do you think? Seems kind of silly when we've just barely reached some kind of parity in regard to the subject, doesn't it?

Oh please, racism is egged on by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the various Tea Parties. My complain with Obama is that he hasn't addressed any of stupid crap that's been tossed at him. If he's trying to seem like an even-handed guy, he's first got wipe the egg and rotten tomatoes off his face ... and maybe toss a little bit of the garbage back.

No, honestly, it is not the White House that is spurring racism.

Obama bashes rich people? That's kind of a hard sell since his policies have been kinder to Wall Street than any President besides George W. Bush. He's a corporatist for godssake.

Surveillance society started with Obama eh? That's rich. I guess Obama got the Patriot Act passed, and Obama empowered the NSA in 2002 to spy on Americans thereby? They're doing the same things they've always done, and they've been telling us they were doing.

Friend, you can say what you want about my optimism, but you're not even living in reality based on this, so, frankly, how would you know?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Looks like we have fundamental differences of opinion. That's what ATS is about.

We can tit for tat until the cows come home and you won't change your mind and neither will I

But I do see society coming apart at the seams, ready to collapse

I for one dread the day totalitarianism which is around the corner hits full force.
The deep seated distrust of each other, which can be seen in our little disagreement of the way the world works
has lead to such a divided country that the next step is totalitarianism.

You do realize that we have a super fan of Alinsky in the white house who is following the Alinsky model of total destruction of a society in order to remake it.

Unfortunately, history tells us that after the total destruction of society, utopia never results, normally a repressive and quite ugly totalitarian (be it King, Dictator, President for Life, One Party rule etc.) government nearly always results after a long and bitter and quite ugly state of anarchy.

Anyway, that is what I see happening.
I lived through desegregation and things got better and better, and now racial tensions are actually higher than during desegregation or the Rodney King riots.

Regardless of who you think started it, I see a surveillance society unlike the world has ever seen, on average a person is under some sort of surveillance every 150 feet when out in public. All citizens phone calls and emails are all stored by the government and routinely scanned. Computer cameras are routinely remotely activated for surveillance and soon all TV's will have cameras (for games, skype etc) and the government is sure to tap into those as they do with computers and phones.

This is the biggest indication we are headed toward a completely repressive and heavy handed totalitarian government.

People are now sentenced for thought crimes, although we call them hate crimes. The sentencing is based on what the judge decides the person was thinking at the time of the crime, there is no evidence required or even wanted by the judge, just a guess as to what someone was thinking. It is routinely abused, like when a gang of blacks beat up a white person and call them racial slurs, the judge normally decides it is not a hate crime. But when the reverse happens, it is always called a hate crime. This does happen, you know it does.

People are destroyed for exercising their faith. It is quite routine to read about some person of faith having their business destroyed because they would not do something that was against their religious values. Regardless of if you think it is ok or not to destroy someones livelihood for it, it happens and that in and of itself is a step toward totalitarianism and forcing atheism in order to run a business.

Pastors are now being required to turn over sermons, emails, transcripts of talks as evidence in a case they were not involved in, as supporting evidence. Yes, I know the sermons were dropped after they realized that was illegal, however they are still demanding pastoral emails and pastoral talks. The government totally thinking that ignoring the constitution was ok because they have twisted what was written in the public meme.

The amendment is freedom OF religion, nowhere does it say From, but OF, the government is not to interfere in sermons, talks or pastoral emails according to the constitution. Which means nothing these days and is derided as antiquated and needs to be abolished by many prominent people in the government. Another step toward totalitarianism, writing the laws to say what the government can do to people rather than what it can not to do people.

Speech has become regulated by those in power through the complete and totally personal destruction of those who do speak in a politically incorrect manner, or have spoken at any time in their life in a politically incorrect manner and it was recorded. The glee that is seen in those doing the destruction over unpopular speech is quite frightening and even more so that it is openly supported and encouraged by the government.

So much so, that once the totalitarian state takes over, Beezer is right, I'm a gonner, but I'm old so I decided to speak out because the young can not for fear of their jobs, children and lives.

That is what society is becoming under politically correct speech, a euphemism for controlled and regulated speech.

This is the saddest of all because when I was in college I dated a LA Raza guy who worked with the Black Panthers, bet that surprises the heck out of you. But these liberals fought tooth and nail for freedom of speech, the right to speak out against the government, the right to say whatever they wanted about society.

It used to be that freedom of speech was a cornerstone of the liberal agenda, that is sadly no longer true at all.

I have been around a long time and am quite frightened by the destruction of society, with no constructive effort toward an ultimate rebuilding of society, just what I see as a purposeful tearing apart of society. With as we have seen above some sort of idea that utopia will result.

Well it won't without a positive and constructive effort to positive change rather than destructive change. I see no move to positive change at all right now, only destructive change leading to one of two things, if history repeats itself, which it always does, totalitarianism or fascism or a combination of the two with the leaders deluding themselves that they are creating utopia.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I could see people working toward a better society.

But destruction never achieves a positive goal. It only makes the bad worse, far worse.

If the government worked hard at uniting rather than dividing, then we could work toward the kind of society you envision.

But it would take a leadership that points out what people have in common, works hard for reconciliation, enforces true justice for all rather than selective justice.

It would take a government (group of people) intent on seeing the good and encouraging everyone to look for what they have in common rather than look at what divides.

The current 2 party system can never achieve that, because it is in their best interest to divide and cause hatred and suspicion. If the US is to survive and not become the most repressive totalitarian government the world has ever seen -
We need the rise of a third party that is comprised of citizens of all walks of life who want to work toward positive goals and restoration. But that won't happen, when a 3rd party tried to emerge they were completely destroyed with rumor and touting the fringe (that are in every party) as the norm so that the 2 parties could stay in power.
Since the 2 parties would do their best to destroy any 3rd party, it would take a literal miracle to happen.

I fear we are doomed to move into the most repressive, most dark, most fascist, most totalitarian government the world has ever seen if we continue on the path we are on now. Why? Because that is how people in power who delude themselves they are going to someday create utopia once everyone thinks exactly as they do, and will do all in their power to force everyone to think as they do.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You're right fundamental differences about what reality is, exist.

However, in the final analysis, there are facts and beliefs. Sometimes beliefs line up with facts, but quite often they don't.

My mother and father lived through the Depression. They waited their whole lives for the next great collapse to come. We even moved to a farm in the late 1970s because my dad was certain that things were about to go to hell.

Churches at that time claimed that Carter was the antichrist, and was going to bayonet Christians and throw them into the ditch, just like the Nazis did in WWII. I remember one particular sermon about the imminent coming of the Tribulation that kept me from sleeping for weeks.

You might notice that none of that ever happened, but my Dad never ever stopped expecting the End of all Things until he died in 2005.

So, I grew up with this kind of apocalypse mentality.

We could dig down to facts here, but really, when belief trumps reality, there's no need.

Enjoy the gloom and doom. It's your absolute right, though not very pleasant nor productive. We'll chat another time.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: grandmakdw

You're right fundamental differences about what reality is, exist.

However, in the final analysis, there are facts and beliefs. Sometimes beliefs line up with facts, but quite often they don't.

It is my contention that you are in denial. I too lived through the times you mentioned.

However during those times the NSA didn't keep records on every individual in the USA or monitor all communications or watch them secretly in their homes through the computer or iphone. You never once denied this happening. So I assume you see no problem with it like I do.

You never denied the application of thought control on our population: through destruction of people for politically incorrect speech (no matter how long ago or the context); through the selective use of prosecution of people for thought crimes (ie hate crimes). So I assume you have no problem with destroying people for politically incorrect speech or do you deny it happens?

You never denied that the government is using Alinsky tactics to divide and conquer to control the citizens of the US, through inciting racism, inciting hatred between conservatives and liberals, inciting distrust of your fellow human being. Obama clearly stated in his biography that he thought Alinsky was one of the best models a government should follow.
Maybe you don't see this as a problem.

Well, I do.

And I see the path we are on leading to totalitarianism and fascism at the end of the path. Utopia will not result from anarchy and destruction as Alinsky promised. It never has in all of history and would have by now it if were going to happen, there have been many times in history when mankind was in full anarchy mode and it 100% of the time led to the most repressive and ugly regimes in history.

Pastor Peterson of Houston's
www.wnd.com...

words have inspired me to never give up in expressing relentlessly the truth

and never to let anyone get me on the defensive, but to always take the offensive approach.

So after a great deal of thought, I will keep on talking truth with facts rather than defend the baseless - name calling - non-factual claims of others.

The USA is in deep deep trouble, and denying it and sticking ones head in the sand pretending it isn't there will only make matters worse.

Fighting to change society is not a change at all. People have already been rebelling/fighting since ancient times. It's nothing new.

A real change of society would be to not fight but instead to be peaceful and kind to each other.

a reply to: arpgme

You have a good point.

However, it is currently not in the best interest of the political parties to promote peace and harmony. We currently have a 2 party and therefore adversarial system of government. So the promotion of hatred and distrust is spread by the very people who promise things will get better in order to retain power and they give the illusion of trying to make things better.