I find the concept of Enlightenment problematic

Enlightenment is to detach oneself from the physical senses, because, being attached to them, grounds one in the physical world, the impermanant physical world that is an "illusion". What is real, is of couse, "one" where one is all that is, and one is not focused on thier personal desires. When one attains enlightenment, they are supposedly in a continual state of "bliss" and when they do die, they "graduate" to a higher plane, a paradise noless. For those that are grounded to the physical world, they are stuck to thier senses, and as such continue to reincarnate.

Firslty, what is wrong with reincarnating on Earth?

Secondly, what is wrong with the physical senses?

Thridly, is living in a continuous state of bliss a constructive thing?

1) Lets say that I've only got one lifetime to live, for whatever reason, there is going to be no reincarnation for me, no ascention to the spiritual plane, just this lifetime. When I look at my life, what do I really have to complain about? Earth is beautiful is it not, I have so many friends, family, and there are so many interesting things to do. If I get come back again (reincarnate) of course I would, and of course I will have learnt many lessons. Think about it, reincarnating on Earth indefinitely, that means that I will always be able to come back here and enjoy life.

2) The goal is to be detached from the physical senses, what would happen if we took this a step further, what if, we had no senses - no touch, no smell, no sight, no hearing and no taste? What happens if one does not feel pain, of course, they would likely die as they would not be able to know if thier body was injured. Without a sense of touch - think about all the things we touch, would one want to be disattached from it? If I were to ask a blind man if he would want to see again, of course he would - would the desire to see again be the cause of his suffering, being too attached to his senses?

3) The state of "bliss" is supposedly a permanant sensation, when one is in this state, they no-longer need to be preoccupied with reality, they can sit in this state eternally. What can be accomplished if one is just immobile, steadfast in thier state of "unity"? In addition, isn't "bliss" just another sensation, were not we suppoed to be detached from them?

You are thinking dualistically. Do way with ideas of physical and spiritual.

a reply to: SystemResistor

Where 'thought' is "real" and the 'physical' is the "illusion"? Those are just "names" there are far too many 'names' already... "Give it a name" Andy Garcia playing 'Jimmy The Saint' in the screen classic "Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead"...

It 'is' whatever You, "The Creator" make of it...

namaste

I also find the concept problematic. "Enlightenment" is a relative term. I've found it means different things to different people. I've seen people here state with conviction that they were enlightened, yet when I asked them for further description, they couldn't articulate. Often, they won't even reply.

I think when someone tells you they're enlightened, it's a pretty safe bet that they are not.

P.S. Be ready for a spate of replies from the various and sundry know-it-alls, masters, and self-proclaimed gurus.

a reply to: SystemResistor

Firslty, what is wrong with reincarnating on Earth?

It could be worst, Mercury looks like a very extreme place to live. Mars appears a lot quieter, might be something already going on through the secret space program, but that's a secret. The international political situation here on Earth is a bit crazy at times. Not really sure just what kinds of other madness and exotic environments are out in this universe. I consider a big diverse range of options if life goes on. Comparing being here on Earth or somewhere out in deep, dark, quite space, it has been interesting.

Secondly, what is wrong with the physical senses?

Pain does get to be too much when it just goes on and on. The rest of the senses are good in that they allow us to perceive and interact with this world.

Thridly, is living in a continuous state of bliss a constructive thing?

It is a good place to be when you are enjoying your work. Life does have its ups and downs.

a reply to: SystemResistor

I think the idea with "ascending to a higher plane" is kind of like becoming a spririt or God nearly. Your caveats for this "evolution of the soul" let's say, are thinking in corporeal thoughts.

Besides that you are also presenting it "matter of fact". So okay, reincarnate or ascend, personally I'm gonna take the latter. The idea of a higher being is one that surpasses space and time, that can be anywhere and anywhere in the universe.

If this really is the case I could see a few choosing to stay, but only a few times over.

My moms friends used to say "you have an old soul. I always hated hearing it all the time.

But if true, yes I could see how I've come up to my time limit. Can only see so much of the human experience before it gets repetitive. Watching the same mistakes over and over.

People say, "With love, you can make the world a better place".

But, I say, "You can't love the world if you think it is something that needs changing."

Its why, politically, I'm a conservative. I don't want all this "change". I love the world as it is.

a reply to: SystemResistor

I think I have had moments of semi-enlightenment, only to return back here to this physical world; however, my understanding, perspective and habitual behavior now is permanently changed, because I no longer see the world as it appears to be, and I no longer see my ego as myself. Can I return to that bliss like Ataraxia? I believe so, but I don't think my destiny or my choice is to bliss out just yet, as there is much to do in this world.

I know many mystics would say this is an error in me, that I am returning to the illusion; however, I think the error truly is saying "well, just because unity is, then duality cannot be." It is a paradox, but unity and independence are simultaneously true, and by ignoring independence and refusing to do good work in the world, we are taking our light out of the world and leaving it in an even more dismal state of darkness than it was when we found it.

My goal in this world is to be the last one out the door. Everyone needs to be light-bearing, not just a few, and until that happens, the illuminated should remain here to bestow their talents and wisdom into the world, for the edification and evolution of others.

a reply to: SystemResistor

Enlightenment is knowing the truth that makes you free? If its blissful thats because you can see through the lies of this world. That is 'blissful' because you don't have to concern your self anymore with the doubt about all the crap everyone seems bound to.

Religion, education, sports, ambition, success, money, stuff, all fleeting and hollow promises.

Enlightenment is just that, being "enlightened". Having your path lit so you know whats true and not. Whats valuable and whats not. Which direction to take or not.

Seeing the truth is easier than following it, though.

Like knowing you shouldn't do that and… doing it anyway.

a reply to: SystemResistor

Enlightenment is the reward of faith. Faith in what?

En-LIGHT-en

For those who have faith in the Light will often times have an epiphany. The epiphany is to finally realize that perfection lives within you.

Religion is the opposite of enlightenment. Religion teaches that we need a human intermediary between God and ourselves, so men go to other men, who, for a price, will teach you the secret path to heaven.

Thier is no secret path, according to nearly every major world religion, the Light, the Christ, the Holy Spirit, is the internal voice of perfection.

Within us we have both spiritual and physical desires. From birth we know that we must please the physical as hunger sets in and we begin to recognize the needs of the flesh.

The flesh was created with carnal desire, meaning the flesh is only concerned with the flesh. Greed, Lust, Anger, these are emotions that come due to the flesh wanting to be satisfied.

The spirit is only concerned with the Love of humanity.

Enlightenment is available to all but it is a two step process, not one.

The first step is to see past the two worlds, physical and spiritual, and makes the conscious choice to follow the Light within.

The second step is to continue to live according to the words that give Light until the epiphany of Light is revealed in you.

Anyone who has had the epiphany will certainly be forever changed by the Light. Through faith one can overcome the carnal desires and be set on a path that leads directly to the Light.

None of this suggests we should separate ourselves from the physical world. Rather through the spirit we are able to fully enjoy the gift that we have received, without harming anyone else.

Jump out of a plane, ride the worlds fastest rollercoaster, go hunting, go fishing, go fly a kite. Enjoy the flesh, but be led by the Spirit, so that the desires of the flesh are never in conflict with the Spirit.

Those who live in conflict with the Holy Spirit live in fear and darkness awaiting punishment. But those who have made peace through the sacrifice of oneself live in unity with the Light. Their path is illuminated and they will not continue to fall.

Enlightenment, is the "turning on" of spiritual wisdom. It is the moment God turns on YOUR light switch. Is your light shining bright?

What is this epiphany according to the enlightened ones who gave us the english language?

epiphany

1. Christian festival, observed on January 6, commemorating the manifestation of Christ to the gentiles in the persons of the Magi; Twelfth-day.

The clues left in our own language tell us the En-LIGHT-end one's believed Christ when he said "I am the Light of the World".

If he is the Light, and he is, then his message is found in the OT, NT, Quran, Buddah, Zooster, Hindu, Plato, and Egypt.

7 witnesses to One Light, and One who claims to be the Light!

I had an epiphany and I am enlightened. I hope that helps.

Enlightenment is simply knowing the difference between right an wrong, true and false, the right decision in the moment.

Thats a light shining on your "path". its not a state of bliss or some kind of high. Its freedom from doubt, its knowing the truth.

The truth as opposed to the lie.

a reply to: SystemResistor

Firslty, what is wrong with reincarnating on Earth?

Secondly, what is wrong with the physical senses?

Thridly, is living in a continuous state of bliss a constructive thing?

nice questions. i think its not to live in a state of perpetual bliss, but to attain perfect mastery over suffering. which is not THE goal of enlightenment, but OUR goal in seeking it. which i think addresses all three questions.

Enlightenment is a funny thing..

If you find your current concept of it problematic, feel free to conceptualize it however you wish!

There is little to no relevant information on the topic. Just kinda how it works. Its frustrating on one side of the fence, but makes sense on the other. That is the process to focus, and then what happens in between becomes a natural next step.

Detachment, obe, etc. are all tricks (or tools, if you prefer) of the mind/ego. Yet they tend to be the areas most seekers become trapped.

a reply to: SystemResistor

All that I can tell you is that enlightenment, the feeling of being connected to it all, exists as a true experience and is like nothing you will ever attain with any kind of drug or any common earthly experience. I have had the experience. Has it made me a saint or a monk? No, too much worldly stuff still exists in my head, but now there is that whole ned other aspect of a new perspective. We experiencers come away with much the attitude about life and death as people that have near-death experiences. Basically, we know that there is something else. And it ain't nothin' connected to a religion.

1) I think it depends on which century or how well its doing socially. Or better yet, popular religious bull crap, will likely lead one to say " Where you a good boy in the past life(like it were Christmas) , or a naughty one?"

2) Nothing, but they tend to lead to distraction, and most practitioner of any faith should show full control over there body to be believed a true master of the art. Like Buddhist extremeist whom set themselves on fire, and won't even mutter a word or move.

3) Yes and no.

a reply to: Specimen

Let just say Batman didn't seek enlightenment.

Problematic??????

Lol maybe it's something to do with believing everything that you see.......no sorry shown.....

you will see and hear of many..........

is that first hand or second hand via media?

He wasnt stupid when he told us now was he .

Enlightenment is transcendence of mind. Has nothing to do with disconnecting yourself from anything. Nothing wrong with reincarnating on earth. Enlightenment is NOT an experience. Mind is experience, a phenomenon just like every thing you perceive. Mind's version of enlightenment is a a temporary experience of phenomena. Which is why mind says 'I experienced it once' or 'I had a glimpse of it' .Enlightenment, what you are already, is the nonexperiene behind all the experience and perceptions, including that of your mind, body and soul. So to is the actual self. It's the constant which observes the ever changing phenomena, of mind,thought and sensory perceptions, etc. The real you.

Most of what you'll find in regard to enlightenment or truth, comes from mystics..has all to do with phenomena, Maya and absolutely nothing to do with truth, liberation or enlightenment. The enlightenment as it is referred by the sages, is a non-phenomenal discovery of self. It's the discovery of the non-dual self which observes and perceives the dual. That which you really are, and always have been. The constant one. The one you are and the one which the mind, or illusory Person (persona) is trying to find.

But when it comes to mind, it can only perceive experience..thus enlightenment is impossible through mind. Recognizing your true position in you're universe, recognizing the one which observes and perceives all the comings and goings..is enlightenment...the liberating kind..not emotional bondage. It's not a fix, or a temporary experience. It's not Maya, like many mystics ( phenomenal joyriders) will lead you to believe.

Enlightenment is transcendence of mind. Has nothing to do with disconnecting yourself from anything. Nothing wrong with reincarnating on earth. Enlightenment is NOT an experience. Mind is experience, a phenomenon just like every thing you perceive. Mind's version of enlightenment is a a temporary experience of phenomena. Which is why mind says 'I experienced it once' or 'I had a glimpse of it' .Enlightenment, what you are already, is the nonexperiene behind all the experience and perceptions, including that of your mind, body and soul. So to is the actual self. It's the constant which observes the ever changing phenomena, of mind,thought and sensory perceptions, etc. The real you.

Most of what you'll find in regard to enlightenment or truth, comes from mystics..has all to do with phenomena, Maya and absolutely nothing to do with truth, liberation or enlightenment. The enlightenment as it is referred by the sages, is a non-phenomenal discovery of self. It's the discovery of the non-dual self which observes and perceives the dual. That which you really are, and always have been. The constant one. The one you are and the one which the mind, or illusory Person (persona) is trying to find.

But when it comes to mind, it can only perceive experience..thus enlightenment is impossible through mind. Recognizing your true position in you're universe, recognizing the one which observes and perceives all the comings and goings, the sun and the stars ..is enlightenment...the liberating kind..not emotional and phenomenal bondage . It's not a fix, or a temporary experience. It's not Maya, like many mystics ( phenomenal joyriders) will lead you to believe.

a reply to: Visitor2012
of
mind.......

nope.....wrong again
body soul and mind. 3
Tri
try again