Senators condemn classified spy project that *may* involve armed satellites

Well... this is a case where the actual info is classified, so everyone is left to guess what the actual debate is over...

Several Democratic senators have expressed vehement opposition to a US spy program that they claim "endangers national security". Since the program is a black budget one, however, their political opponents have no way to counter these claims in a public forum (think of a debate where no one is allowed to mention, to the audience, what the topic of the debate is). What some outside monitors have been able to conclude -- or guesstimate -- is that this secret project involves spy satellites that have defensive capabilities. This analysis is based on the cost of the program and past comments from Rumsfeld concerning fears of a "space Pearl Harbor":

www.msnbc.msn.com...

"The rare criticisms of a highly secretive project in such a public forum intrigued outside intelligence experts, who said the program was almost certainly a spy satellite system, perhaps with technology to destroy potential attackers. They cited tantalizing hints in Rockefeller�s remarks, such as the program�s enormous expense and its alleged danger to national security."

While looking for more articles on this topic, I ran across these links you guys might find interesting:

-The US could shoot down Euro GPS satellites if used by China during a time of war:
www.spacedaily.com...


-The US has looked into destroying satellites from the ground:
www.fas.org...

Presumably the secret program the Dems are objecting to involves defensive capabilities for satellites that are under such attack.

Here's CBS' take on the funding mystery:
www.cbsnews.com...

"In an unusually public rebuke of a secret government project, Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, the senior Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, complained Wednesday that the program was "totally unjustified and very, very wasteful and dangerous to the national security." He called the program "stunningly expensive." "


BTW... does everyone have me on 'ignore'? I thought that the board would jump all over this story when I ran across it this morning...

Did someone say something??

No this is very worrying indeed.
This is just hypothetical, but maybe its a cover project for Star Wars? Or maybe some kind of space based WMD platform? Who knows, but this need to be gotten to the bottom of!

Good post!!!

Here's space.com's take on the story:
www.space.com...

"The rare criticisms of a highly secretive project in such a public forum intrigued outside intelligence experts, who said the program was almost certainly a spy satellite system, perhaps with technology to destroy potential attackers. They cited tantalizing hints in Rockefeller's remarks, such as the program's enormous expense and its alleged danger to national security.
A U.S. panel in 2001 described American defense and spy satellites as frighteningly vulnerable, saying technology to launch attacks in space was widely available. The study, by a commission whose members included Donald H. Rumsfeld prior to his appointment as defense secretary for Bush, concluded that the United States was "an attractive candidate for a Space Pearl Harbor."'

Actually... while looking through an old book on SDI the other day... I came across the idea of using atomic bombs in space to create beams that could disable incoming missiles. Could something like this be a part of this secret project?

Here a update to this topic

www.msnbc.msn.com...

The US has already deployed a satelite jamming system which while it does not go into deatail would no doubt be able to locally jam Gallileo or GLOSNASS (whats left of it). The ATSNN story can be read here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here's the NYTimes on this issue:
www.nytimes.com...

According to the Gray Lady, the satellite system isn't armed... but does have a type of stealth capability (as suggested by other members here).

What I find MOST interesting about this whole (developing) controversy is that charges may be brought up against the four democratic senators who spilled the beans on this system by not only dropping hints about what it was... but also by drawing attention to it.

Just think of the scene if four senators are arrested or prosecuted for revealing that the US had a fleet of stealth satellites!!!

This is not Israel- I doubt anyone is going down for blowing the whistle on a weapons program of dubious moral and strategic implications for the nation. To the left these would pretty much be heroes and it would be difficult to convict them without stacking a jury against them. A censure by the republican controlled congress is not unthinkable, but I am guessing thats it.

Now for my guesswork. I wont pretend its anything other than guess work.
If these satellites have the ability to avoid being destroyed there are two options.
1. Its fully shielded against various forms of energy which would give it both stealth qualities and the ability to survive an EMP attack. I suppose such a device could even be designed to deflect an attack by laser. It would take all of these things to give a satellite strong defenses. These qualities are provokative because not only do rival powers not know when the satellite is overhead but it would be very difficult to analyze the satellite and determine whether or not the satellite was armed with either lasers or nuclear weapons to be used as a missile shield or offensive weapon.
2. It is not stealth, but is equipped with lasers for both missile shield and self-defensive uses.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
This is not Israel- I doubt anyone is going down for blowing the whistle on a weapons program of dubious moral and strategic implications for the nation. To the left these would pretty much be heroes and it would be difficult to convict them without stacking a jury against them. A censure by the republican controlled congress is not unthinkable, but I am guessing thats it.

I don't know... if these guys revealed a major component of our defense strategy... I honestly see them suffering in a big way. If these are sats that are equipped with weaponry or stealth capability, their having been leaked out to the public would equal a big security snafu.

And, yes, they would become the heroes of the Left. However, it's important to note that the 'Left' does not constitute a substantial part of the country's electorate. Despite what some activists and Howard Dean want to tell you, 48% of the country is not liberal. Many voted for Kerry in the last election because of labor issues or ethnic affiliations. When everything is taken into account, only about a third of the US is socially liberal and an even smaller percentage sees the US as an 'imperial power'. My guess is that most Kerry voters, even, would think having armed sats or stealth spacecraft was 'cool'. The media would go berserk... as well as college professors... but other than those groups no one in the US will really care if we've already put weapons in space (or so I imagine).

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
And, yes, they would become the heroes of the Left. However, it's important to note that the 'Left' does not constitute a substantial part of the country's electorate. Despite what some activists and Howard Dean want to tell you, 48% of the country is not liberal.

Yeah it really is funny how that works. Conservatives (if you can still call republicans that) are being entrusted with more power in each election, yet somehow conservatives like myself have this "minority complex" sometimes, as if the big bad left was gonna huff and puff and protest our common sense down. Of course I live in California, and maybe thats why I have that problem.

My guess is that most Kerry voters, even, would think having armed sats or stealth spacecraft was 'cool'. The media would go berserk... as well as college professors... but other than those groups no one in the US will really care if we've already put weapons in space (or so I imagine).

Agreed, but I'm not certain that we're ready as a culture to lock somebody up seriously in the name of secrecy. We barely do it for murder here in California. The only real crime in this state is littering- they take you to the cleaners if something should blow out of your pickup-bed.
I can imagine these people being censured (impeached if it wasn't for the name Rockerfeller), hated throughout the country, excomunicated from their churches, and perhaps shot by pyschotic bootcamp washouts who wanted to prove they love their country. The only thing I can't see happening is them going to jail because there are three kinds of people who dont go to jail in America- The rich, The powerful, and The guilty.
Forgive my exagerative nature, but I believe you can see where I am coming from. Right wrong or indifferent this isn't a very strict society- how can loose lips sink ships when nobody else has a decent navy? thats the attitude.

Onlyinmydreams, I'm new here but I get the feeling that only very few are concerned with clandestine evil. Most seem to be here to be a part of it.

Agreed, but I'm not certain that we're ready as a culture to lock somebody up seriously in the name of secrecy

People are killed on a regular basis to keep lesser secrets, vagabond.
A person is judged on how much credibility they have, will to disclose and amount of damaging information. Since credibility and information is assumably in order they become candidates immediately when talking about it. Being this relatively high profile, prison would be too much attention so a little behind the scenes pressure is applied and if necessary an accidental death of a family member to demonstrate the stakes.
Evil plays for keeps. Only way to beat it is not to submit to pressure. At all.

Very few are willing to give their lives for it however which is what it often costs.

How about this could be a revival of project "Brilliant Pebbles"?

Originally posted by Countermeasures
How about this could be a revival of project "Brilliant Pebbles"?

For those of you who don't do a lot of cold-war era reading, brilliant pebbles was to be a constellation of relatively simple killer satellites which would be used to take out ICBMs at their apex, if I remember correctly. (most of my nuclear posts are based on the reading I did in a country-club library back when i was a night watchman).

I dont remember ever reading about pebbles being stealth or having self defensive capabilities, but perhaps we have gotten ahead of ourselves in our interpretations of the leaked information.

I personally have long suspected that pebbles were in place because of how relatively simple the project is, and I have heard that we launched shuttle missions very frequently during the SDI days which may have represented the deployment of a simple first-phase SDI.
I tend to see the the new round of pressure for a missile defense as the search for 2nd or 3rd layers of defense which could perhaps be exploited for offensive purposes as well. Let's face it- if you give Dubya a big array of super-powerful lasers with state of the art targeting systems and tell him "now George, only use this if we are under nuclear attack" its not gonna take very long before he snaps and finds a reason to use it on a camel.
And dont start with me- I'm not even against Bush, I just think I am developing a sense of the man.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


Here's CBS' take on the funding mystery:
www.cbsnews.com...

"In an unusually public rebuke of a secret government project, Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, the senior Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, complained Wednesday that the program was "totally unjustified and very, very wasteful and dangerous to the national security." He called the program "stunningly expensive." "


BTW... does everyone have me on 'ignore'? I thought that the board would jump all over this story when I ran across it this morning...

How does this man, who is "the senior Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee," merit such a position when he, as others, expose a US spy secret(s)? I find it highly ironic that the Dem's then wonder why they aren't and/or can't be trusted with national security.
Too much talk lets out US spy secret



seekerof

[edit on 12-12-2004 by Seekerof]

I heard this Classified project might be the development of a stealth satellite. So instead of looking like the size of a bus on Radar it looks like the size of a soda can and blends in with the thousands of pieces of space junk floating around in space.

Here's an update on the msnbc version:


The article speculates that these sats may both have stealth AND offensive capabilities... the idea would be that, at the beginning of a war, the classified sats could sneak up to an enemy spy satellite and jam or otherwise mess it up without detection.

offcourse... now everyone in the world will know what these things will be up to if a war starts. Thanks a lot senators Rockeffeler, Durbin, and Wyden!!! Perhaps you guys could email the chinese our missile codes?

BTW... I find it fascinating that Durbin, who is one of my senators, has found the time to both complain on tv about there not being enough armor in Iraq AND help spill the beans on one of our nation's most cutting edge defense projects.

the problem with ASAT weapons is that if you want to get into that gae, you better be sure that you have less to lose than your enemy does. look at the united states. where would we be if a large number of our satelite based communications, intel, and positioning satelites were knocked out? the capibilities of our forces would be taken down a signifigant step from their current standing. now look at china. what kind of damge would loosing their few com and rudimentary spy sattelities be to them? not much. killing satellites is EASY to do if you dont mind a brute force aproach.

with this in mind it would be much better for the us to stick to a no war in space policy and prevent provoking such a conflict

.
If it is armed it violates the Outer Space Treaty

Recalling resolution 1884 (XVIII), calling upon States to refrain from placing in orbit around the earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass destruction or from installing such weapons on celestial bodies, which was adopted unanimously by the United Nations General Assembly on 17 October 1963,

Treaty
That would be very provocative.
Not sure on whether or not a laser would be considered a WMD or not.

If it is astronomically expensive too I think I am having a problem with it.
.

It's funny when libs like to try to condemn certain offensive and defensive weapons programs because it might start an arms race or possibly a conflict with another country. This logic suggests to me that they actually believe every other dictatorship and authoritarian government in the world is benevolent and abides by all treaties and all standards of warfare. This is not only naive, but absurd. China, Russia and the EU would do anything to get ahead of the U.S. so they can become a superpower. This is not Americas fault but the nature of mankind and the differences in culture around the world. If we sit back and fall behind what our psuedo-enemies are doing then we will be at a serious risk of attack. If we are technologically ahead of our enemies then we hold the cards not them, which means the chances of them attacking us is very small since they will lose.