Pro-Russian rebels using seized Ukrainian missile downed MH17 passenger plane, says Germany

Very interesting news if true.

www.theage.com.au...

Germany's intelligence service believes Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian rebels using a missile taken from a Ukraine military base, a German newspaper has reported.

The finding contradicts previous claims – including by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and US Secretary of State John Kerry – that the missile was supplied by Russia.

Sunday's Der Spiegel reported that the BND, Germany's foreign intelligence service, had completed a detailed analysis of the July 17 tragedy, in which all 298 passengers and crew died.

Like many, I was under the impression that the missile was supplied by Russsia to the pro-Russian rebels. If the report is true, it still lays the blame on the pro-Russian rebels, but certainly does nothing to aid the claims of the Ukrainians, nor the belligerence and credibility of Tony Abbott.

Ukraine has accused Russia of being directly responsible for the attack, and its own security service provided recordings of calls that it claimed proved the link.

In July, the head of Ukraine's SBU, Vitaly Naida, said it had "clear evidence" of the involvement of Russian citizens in the attack on MH17, which he had provided to international intelligence services.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, in his recent "shirtfront" challenge to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said those on board MH17 were "murdered with Russian support".

Very interested to see where this will go.

a reply to: cuckooold

I'm not willing to believe this spin of the story yet. It may end up being true or false,but I think I'll wait until the full story comes out. I know one expert is swearing that the damage he sees on the fuselage is from large gun fire. But like I said,I'll wait and see. Too many were willing to blame Russia for this. I truly hope it comes out in the end with Russia having nothing to do with it,and the world owes Russia a very large apology. I said from the beginning that it would make no sense for Russia to down the plane when they were trying to proclaim their innocence of the whole mess. We shall see.

Paul Craig Roberts brings up some facts about how truthful the media is or how much salt should be used seeing most if not all of them work for the CIA a reply to: cuckooold

originally posted by: cuckooold

Like many, I was under the impression that the missile was supplied by Russsia to the pro-Russian rebels. If the report is true, it still lays the blame on the pro-Russian rebels, but certainly does nothing to aid the claims of the Ukrainians, nor the belligerence and credibility of Tony Abbott.

Or you could take the more obvious route and just admit it was Ukraine.

Don't you see the lie back stepping. You Bluff with the biggest lie and then you keep backing up as you are pushed always twisting it to keep the blame on the other person.

It's like when you say I'll sell this car for $10,000 and then when the person is going to walk away you're like ok ok you got me $8,000... Eventually the price is $5,000 and you buy it. Well this is like that they keep lowering the lie, but the catch is that it's never worth buying. But as long as it slows you down enough who cares in the end? Nothing will come of it.

This lie has twisted so much it's obviously worthless. I have no idea why anyone would trust Germany in all of this. They are one of the players in the game as it were.

Until we have a complete reconstruction of the aircraft from all the wreckage and a debris trail mapped to where the parts were found on the ground, it's impossible to say who fired what.

My guess is that ballistics could tell which direction the missile was going - did it come from behind the aircraft or from in front of it? But they are designed to fly alongside the aircraft and then explode, so hitting a fast moving aircraft from behind it's easier than trying to hit it from the front.

Even if it is the Pro Russians separatists you cannot really blame Putin directly for it. But then if it suddenly is CIA/NGO/Ukrainian side then then it really will be interesting to hear those that are seeing Russia as the new Nazi Germany.

"The information war for Ukraine" - Satirical German program "Die Anstalt"


Personal opinion:
I think that Crimea should never have been Ukraine when you look at history. But I do not get what the end will be in eastern Ukraine. I cannot find any good justification for Russia holding it. But I have a theory that maybe the war industrial production is being transferred to Russia while the separatist hold eastern Ukraine.

Funny Just found an article describing it.
www.janes.com...

Ukraine really are in trouble. When it is not Russia taking equipment from them then it's FED who airlifts their gold reserve. They really opened a can of worms when they got in between US and Russia fighting for their interest in Ukraine.

I'm putting my money on this German report. I never thought Russia gave those missiles to the rebels. I think evidence was fabricated to show that Russia did it. I actually think there is a lot more to this than what the Germans say in the report also. This could be a really big setup by the Ukrainian government to acquire support for their leadership too.

I can only say I do not think Russia's military was involved in any way with this event.

a reply to: rickymouse

Even so ... Putin sure has used the opportunity to booster a sagging image at home, social unrest to his KGB like governing and taking it on the chin for 10 yrs from the west. This is his playground and no ones gonna pick on his cousin.

a reply to: cuckooold

From the article.

The finding contradicts previous claims – including by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and US Secretary of State John Kerry – that the missile was supplied by Russia.

Ah and we should these jokers because again why?

a reply to: cuckooold

Pro-Russian rebels, seized an Ukranian missile?

Yeah, right ... a report by German intelligence, is just a CIA report. When they use the German intelligence to tunner their information, it's usually bull#.

This crap, is self evident bull# ... it's like the new US intelligence stuff about "There are WMD's in Iraq, and ISIS could get their hands on it, now we need to return and get all those WMD's".

originally posted by: rickymouse
I'm putting my money on this German report.

There is no "german" report ... Germany is a US colony, and has absolutely NO self determination.

This is a CIA report ... and it's a lame one at that. But, it'll probably boost the self confident of gullable idiots in Europe.

Just like Carl Bildt in Sweden, he's once again searching for a Russian sub in Sweden. Since the Russians take a "specific" route from White Russia and Russia in the Eastern sea, and everyone know they drive this route from "memory". It would be highly likely that Carl Bildt himself put something down there to "hinder" them in their route and cause an accident (after all, he conciders the deep sea to be "his" territory). Why else would you be hunting a Russian sub, with torbedo boats ... unless you were an "insane" idiot, that's intent on provocing the Russians. Even the US, would have offered to "help".

So, the situation in Europe is "provoke" The Russians ... and it's most likely a pro-US agenda, that is provided by CIA as a retaliation for Putin having taken in Snowden.

Putin is not a good leader here ... he should step down and allow some "hardliner" to take his place. He "should" take the provokation and escalate the situation. That is his only winning move ... as playing the "good" guy will never pay off for the Russians. Their only winning move, is the trump card ... nuclear arsenal. Which will in return stop any European/US provokation, and call upon a new investigation in Europe, on the issue. This in return, would play into the hands of the Russians, and not the US.

Putin playing his "trump" card, of visually threatening a nuclear war ... would never lead to a nuclear war. But it would lead to Europeans literally crapping in their pants, and that's exactly what is needed. They need to be "shaken" up. They've forgotten "Hitler" and WWII.

Lmao with this report. When it smells like bs and looks like bs it must be dogs%&#. Whu what...

All these fools need to do is release the sattelite images to the public. But we all know those images are messed with ofcourse *sigh*

First cassualty of war is always the truth...nasty world we live in

Same as with 9/11 the truth is not coming out for a long time but the ones behind all these nasty false flags will get their karma! In this life or the next

Interesting, but even the separatists leader said the BUK systems they got from Ukraine were not operational....

Khodakovsky said he did not know where the missile system had come from but it may have come from Russia. He added the separatists had seized several Buk systems from Ukrainian bases, but none of them were operational.

www.theguardian.com...

So now how does one fire something that isn't operational, and bring down a plane?

And in case you don't know who Khodakovsky is, he would be the man who is leading the separatists.

a reply to: bjarneorn

This is a CIA report ... and it's a lame one at that. But, it'll probably boost the self confident of gullable idiots in Europe.

You truly are clueless aren't you?

If the CIA runs Germany why would they have made such a stink over the CIA in Germany?

a reply to: bjarneorn

Their only winning move, is the trump card ... nuclear arsenal. Which will in return stop any European/US provokation, and call upon a new investigation in Europe, on the issue. This in return, would play into the hands of the Russians, and not the US.

You just won't be happy until someone starts lobbing nukes will you?

You might want to see someone about your warmongering it really is getting sad now.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: bjarneorn

You truly are clueless aren't you?

If the CIA runs Germany why would they have made such a stink over the CIA in Germany?

Of course I'm clueless ... just liek you ... but am searching for the truth, non the less.

There are two sides of Germany, but officially ... Germany is a colony. Go there yourself, the key figures in Germany are Jewish, American or British. And of course Merkel ... she's an idiot, and you just gotta wonder who put such an idiot in place. All she has accomplished, is ruining the German industry ...

German "intelligence" is and always has been CIA ... starting with the immense telephone surveillance they launced, currently known as the Echolon. The US operates a lot of it's military through German bases, still residing in Germany.

Not seeing what the big deal is here. Regardless of who fired the missile. Russia manufactured and sold the missile. The rest is all semantics. Shouldn't they be responsible as they were the ones who ultimately created the object which caused the deaths of those passengers.

The US should be just as responsible for the creation of the weapons seized by ISIS and used against the local peoples. Maybe we should all stop selling advanced weapons to everyone else. What do you think?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Interesting, but even the separatists leader said the BUK systems they got from Ukraine were not operational....

Well, if the Russians didn't supply it, and the Pro-Russians didn't have an operational system, then, just maybe, it was the Ukrainians who shot down the aircraft....

Here`s some more information about what a load of BS it is :

German Parliament member Alexander Neu interview on 15 oct. :

"Germany has no reliable evidence"

Source

Germany also has no spy-satellites who are capable of seeing those kind of images, so they are probably given by the US.

RT: So far, the investigators have only made very basic conclusions, as seen in the report they had released. How could Germany have already reached such a definite conclusion?

ST: Well, first of all, the question is whether Germany really did come with a fairly definite conclusion or whether this is an exercise in disinformation or propaganda. I think it is the latter because whatever the German intelligence, the Germans, might have had at their disposal to conclude that the rebels obtained the Buk system from the Ukrainian base, that there was no Ukrainian jet fighters in the vicinity of the aircraft and so on, could have come only from US satellite sources, not from Germany’s own which it doesn’t have.So the fact that it was made public, and the fact that the information was presented allegedly to the German parliamentary subcommittee and not to the official investigating body, to my mind, simply means that the MH17 issue is being kept on the backburner as a propagandistic tool of various Western powers to be deployed if and when needed and then to be put back on the backburner again.

Source

He`s wrong about the Netherlands not knowing them :

The Netherlands knows the satellite images

The satellite images that would show who is responsible for the attack on MH17, are known to the Dutch government. According to the Ministry of Security "all lines are open to sharing information with the Research Council and the Public Prosecutor."

Source

‘Germany’s intel agency is (apparently) branch of CIA’

The German BND is not an independent intelligent service but more like a CIA branch, Manuel Ochsenreiter, Editor-in-Chief of Zuerst magazine, told RT. Its so-called evidence on the MH17 tragedy is questionable and contradicting, he added.

Source

Russian Lawmaker Says German MH17 Crash Intel Points to Kiev

German BND foreign intelligence agency's conclusions on the alleged downing of the Malaysian Boeing crash in eastern Ukraine can be interpreted in a way that implicates Kiev in the crash, as mush as the local militias, a senior Russian lawmaker said Sunday.

"The German intelligence stated: The Boeing was downed by a Buk missile system 'captured by militias.' That means Russia was not involved. And the Buk could have been launched by the Ukrainian Armed Forces," Alexei Pushkov, who heads the Russian lower parliamentary house's foreign affairs committee, said on Twitter.

The review also discovered that some of the evidence on the MH17 crash provided by Kiev had been falsified, Der Spiegel reported Sunday. Photographic evidence provided by Ukraine on the crash had been manipulated and "there are details indicating this", the newspaper cited Schindler as saying.

Source

Rebels deny accusations MH17

Pro-Russian rebels have not shot flight MH17 out of the sky. That's what rebel leader Andrej Purgin said today in response to an article in the German newspaper Der Spiegel.

According Purgin the Buk missile system is very complicated and the insurgents do not have the knowledge to deal with it.

Link :

www.trouw.nl...

Kiev also attacked the MH17 crash-site after they had agreed do not, so the Dutch investigators couldn`t do research and have been obstructed numerous times while the Separatists actual have been helping out as much as they could.

Even now the Separatists can`t believe why there hasn`t been any investigation at the part of the Russian side of the crash site (half of it) which is safe enough for research.

a reply to: Flatcoat

Well, if the Russians didn't supply it,

Well it seems very interesting that the separatists didn't have an operational one yet they are the ones suspected of doing it in the report.

So now the question is since their acquired BUK system didn't work where did they get the one that was operational?

Ukraine didn't give it to them, so it seems the closest ally of the separatists would be able to give them one would be Russia. Also remember the area these weapons are crossing are in rebel held territory so things come across without being seen.