Government to Ordained Ministers: Celebrate Same-Sex Wedding or Go to Jail

a reply to: Bone75

The Bible says marriage is between a man and a woman.

No it doesn't. Nowhere in the bible is the words man, woman and marriage is used in the same verse. If you read the bible it suggests that people just shack up instead of getting married.

Genesis 2:24 states: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."
This would be more in line with common-law man and wife instead of the traditional marriage.

Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus reaffirms this: "He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?"
Again no mention of the word marriage just the man leaves his mother and father and moves in with a woman he calls his wife.
The "traditional marriage" is a made up modern institution.

a reply to: Bone75

The Bible says marriage is between a man and a woman. Period.

So what if it does?

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis


I support the ministers right to believe what they believe, and the right to practice their beliefs in private

Keep belief behind closed doors. Perhaps we should just ban churches then?

I can't support public discrimination

Unless it is discrimination against christians, then you're all for it.

Beezzer - I wonder if you could answer a question for me, honestly and directly? Let's see...

If they had refused to marry an interracial couple - would you still support them and condemn the government?

If you can show me a religious doctrine that is against it, then I would support their rights.

May I ask you a question in return?

Why is it that so many only will support freedoms that they agree with, and discount/ignore freedoms that they don't?

a reply to: beezzer

Keep belief behind closed doors. Perhaps we should just ban churches then?

Is that what I said? I wonder if you could answer a question - once - without putting words in other people's mouths

Public and private - as far as this goes - means just that. They are operating a business - open to the public. Public means the general population. In case you're confused, that means: everybody

Unless it is discrimination against christians, then you're all for it.

Again? Is this what I said - or what I meant? That was cowardly, dishonest - and mean. Also, completely unnecessary since I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to understand your thinking

Also - Christians should be capitalized :-)

If you can show me a religious doctrine that is against it, then I would support their rights.

Interesting. So, religion, in your mind - should always permit the believer rights no matter what the rest of society believes and has agreed on together? Laws are for suckers?

If my god thinks witches are bad - nobody should have a problem with me if I burn a few? Or, even if they do have a problem with it, my religious belief comes before their belief?

Religious belief trumps all other beliefs?

Why is it that so many only will support freedoms that they agree with, and discount/ignore freedoms that they don't?

You gotta be kidding me with this one Beeze! Please, look in the mirror and repeat after me...

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.

These christian ministers aren't denying gay unions, they just don't wish to participate.

If you don't want to respect their religious tenet, then that's fine, I suppose.

Haters gonna hate!

I see people talking about not for profit businesses... So... Churches are non profit organisations? Pfft! Yeah, sure sure! hahahah

I guess the vatican got so damn rich by magic... Makes sense...

If I were gay and I knew a shop owner hated me for being gay, I wouldn't WANT to shop in his damn store out of principal! I wouldn't want to make the guy money! You crazy? My point being I don't even care if it is a business... People should be able to refuse service for whatever reason they like!

Gov just needs to get their damn nose our of our business and we have to accept that we all have different views. I think it is stupid to hate on gay people but hey I support the right to free speech and free expression for both gay people and those that don't like gay people. That's what TRUE free speech is all about! Free speech is NOT about all the nice things people say, it is for all the horrid things people might say.

We just need to grow over time and education! You can't force it! You are only brushing it under the rug and creating resentment that will bubble away under the surface!

So I don't care that this is a so called for profit...

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Are churches open to the public?

a reply to: beezzer

Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.

Yes - exactly! You so often argue against yourself - think of the time you could save! :-)

These christian ministers aren't denying gay unions, they just don't wish to participate.

But as Phage mentioned earlier - they are selling marriage - to the public. The Hitching Post is a business, not a church
Seems to me anyone can become an ordained minister - and set up a marriage making business - then refuse certain people based on their beliefs. Same as cake makers and photographers - and candlestick makers for that matter :-)
Become an Ordained Minister

If you don't want to respect their religious tenet, then that's fine, I suppose.

Haters gonna hate!

So, when you can't argue - you accuse people of hate?

Do you think I hate you? Or just Christians in general?

Because I don't think two ordained ministers should have the right to publicly deny fellow citizens their right to be married in a public place same as anyone else?

I wish you could express yourself and put out your opinions without all the name calling and derision

If wishes were fishes...

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Are churches open to the public?

Does it matter?

:-)

If you have a point - go ahead and make it

a reply to: beezzer

Also -beezzer - I was actually hoping you would answer this one: Religious belief trumps all other beliefs?

Is it that you can't answer it because you don't know how, or is it because for some reason you just don't want to?

Maybe you just didn't see it?

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I fear that you will be among those that will cheer government mandates when they start dictating church doctrine.

You don't care about freedom, as long as it sits comfortably within your own belief system.

Two ministers have an issue with gay marriage. It goes against their beliefs.

Insteading of respecting their beliefs, you and others like you attack them, force them to violate their belief system.

Are churches open to the public?

Yes they are.

When are you going to go after churches? You've already made it clear that faith, religious belief is an appropriate target.

a reply to: beezzer

Are they public organizations - or private?

Do they pay taxes?

I fear that you will be among those that will cheer government mandates when they start dictating church doctrine.

You don't care about freedom, as long as it sits comfortably within your own belief system.

You have no idea what my belief system is - apparently. It doesn't interest you to understand me

You think insult and slander is the same as intelligent argument

Fare thee well beezer - I'll speak with you again when you can show some respect

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

Fare thee well beezer - I'll speak with you again when you can show some respect

You first have to give it in order to get it.

Beezer you keep bringing up churches, and it's your thread, so you know perfectly well it's not about churches. It's about a wedding chapel. But you aren't arguing the wedding chapel so much as you are arguing churches.

See what I mean? You're arguing a discrepancy in subject matter in your own thread.

Maybe you should make a thread about churches.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
Beezer you keep bringing up churches, and it's your thread, so you know perfectly well it's not about churches. It's about a wedding chapel. But you aren't arguing the wedding chapel so much as you are arguing churches.

See what I mean? You're arguing a discrepancy in subject matter in your own thread.

Maybe you should make a thread about churches.

I'm bring up churches to prove a point.

People are saying "it's a chapel, so it's okay for government to step in and dictate"

So it's okay for chapels, but churches are still off-limits?

Thus, my point about churches.

a reply to: beezzer

They are not forced to practice their business. They have a choice, comply with the law, close their business, or suffer the consequences. To recap what you have chosen to ignore...

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

The Civil Rights Act 1964 (passed by Congress btw):

TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
OOO(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

a reply to: Kali74

So you are not for religious freedoms.

Okay.

See how easy that was?

Either you're for religious freedoms or you aren't.

Too many people are saying that they are, but only if it is a church, or only if it is a tax-exempt status.

Qualifying answers is quite telling.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

Sodomy now, is it? Are you claiming someone is having sex at this Hitchin' Post?

Sodomy is a act, not a condition. For that matter, Christian faith is a choice, perhaps you should give that up?

Same logic.

One who chooses to engage in sodomy is a sodomite. One who turns away from their sins and follows Christ is a Christian. Both are conditions. Marriage requires consummation by both the Bible and some states. The gay version of consummation is sodomy. No Christian minister should be forced to endorse sodomy.

Ah ... "the Bible says"

The Bible also says you can't eat shrimp, wear two kinds of cloth, or plant two kinds of crops together.

I believe we're also supposed to kill children who are disrespectful???

Pfft.

I love how you reference the Bible if you can twist it to support your argument, but piss on it if you can't. And btw I don't eat shellfish, nor do I wear blended cloth, nor do I grow crops at all. Eventually science will come to understand the reasoning behind these practices just as they are finally realizing the benefits of fasting.

And as far as stoning our kids to death...

"Let he is without sin, cast the first stone. "

a reply to: beezzer

People are saying "it's a chapel, so it's okay for government to step in and dictate"

Right. Yes. It's okay.

So it's okay for chapels, but churches are still off-limits?

Exactly.

Now that we've cleared that up, I will go play Frisbee with my dogs. Have a good day.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: beezzer

People are saying "it's a chapel, so it's okay for government to step in and dictate"

Right. Yes. It's okay.

So it's okay for chapels, but churches are still off-limits?

Exactly.

Now that we've cleared that up, I will go play Frisbee with my dogs. Have a good day.

What's the difference between a chapel and a church?