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originally posted by: punkinworks10
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Just one more question at what point had mathematics advanced enough that an elliptical orbit could be calculated?
originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: 131415
Are you proposing one of the 'billiard ball' scenarios then?
For lurkers there were earlier theories that the solar system we see now was quite 'active' during ancient times, with Venus popping out of Jupiter, Mars running around, etc. One of the better known of these theories was covered in a book called, 'Worlds in Collision' written by Immanuel Velikovsky and first published April 3, 1950. There were others too.
originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: punkinworks10
punkinworks10, the work of Kepler would indicate you do not need to know the gravitational constant, nor calculus, to determine a planet's orbital radius. Kepler's laws did not need either, however they are considered descriptions of a planet's motion, without understanding the whys. Newton was able to expand on Kepler's theories. Newton's laws of motion and universal law of gravity did that, and his development of calculus paved the way for understanding orbital mechanics.
originally posted by: 131415
1. All mythologies are cosmological in nature. They are describing the interactions/physical characteristics of planets. In a context befitting of life on planet earth.
3. Almost all of the GeoPolitical endeavours by Modern man are directly related to these same planetary relationships from antiquity - Every significant war. The creation of nations. Their flags. Their ideologies. Greeks vs Trojans, Communism vs Democracy. Constantly being played out - by every generation without their consent or knowledge.
4. All ancient monolithic structures are scaled models of the celestial events seen in ancient skies.
5. All Cave Paintings/Rock Art are also representative of events seen in ancient skies. (There's a reason Cattle Cults were so prevalent! Same reason the Bull of Heaven was so revered)
6. Many of the Geological formations on planet earth can be directly explained through the electrical interactions between planets. (See The Grand Canyon, Great Lakes Formation, Mans subsequent obsession with Gold, Major Climate Changing events throughout Earth's entire history etc etc.)
They didn't need advanced calculus or telescopes. The God's (Planets) were both feared and adored the world over. Their arrivals and departures transformed entire civilizaions/political structures/religous beliefs. And in more than one instance brought about catastrophe unimaginable by todays experiences. Its all their in the written record. Just told in the context of Human Beings down here on Earth.
originally posted by: Bilk22
Man I was hoping someone would say this Great post!
originally posted by: Harte
originally posted by: Hanslune
First off I don't have the math(s) ability to answer this question myself so if I could call upon the many gifted posters here to answer it.
One see's claims that the ancient knew the orbits of the inner (and outer) planets.
So what instruments, mathematics and skills would be required to obtain that information? The Europeans and others seemed to have worked on this problem for centuries until they resolved it.
So having placed the question I back away and hope that those more gifted by Saint Hubertus can answer it.
The first thing they would need is a theory of Heliocentrism, which the certainly did not have and almost certainly could never have had, since the Sun, the Moon and planets obviously circled around the Earth.
Armed with heliocentricity, they could have established reasonable estimates of the orbits of visible planets using the same means they were using to plot their positions in the sky - good eyeballs and standard positioning equipment. They had the former, and they built the latter (stone circles, the edges of ziggurats, etc.) However, they could not have begun to do this without having the concept that these bodies orbited the Sun.
This is why Europeans had the various layers of "crystal spheres" turning around the Earth for so many years, with the planets turning little circles on their individual spheres; until moons were observed to be going around Jupiter.
Harte
Now if we could just get someone to pull that curtain aside, I'd like to see the Wizard so he can tell us the reason for all the lies.
originally posted by: 131415
Plasma Science: Hans Alfven - Nobel Prize Winner
Today, magnetic fields are detected everywhere, even in the “empty” depths of intergalactic space. Magnetic fields cannot exist without causative electric currents. The naked electric force is 39 orders of magnitude (a thousand billion billion billion billion times) stronger than gravity. The visible universe is constituted almost entirely 99.9% of electrically active plasma.
To then suggest that our early ancestors may have witnessed awe inspiring electrical events in the skies—the source of unified myths and symbols around the world shouldn't be that big of a leap once you come to terms with the role of Electricity in the universe.
I've taken it a bit further (as have a few others) in suggesting that a curious number of historical HUMAN BEINGS infact never existed on earth. They never fought any battles here. Instead they solely existed in the Viewable Skies of antiquity as celestial displays.
-The Shinto Myth - "The Way of the Gods" - all one needs to do is replace gods with planets. or take Katrina the Water God that lived in the Southern United States and defeated vast armies. And simply call it what it is: An Electrical Event personified into having Human Characteristics.
-The Trojan War - by all accounts probably did not occur on planet earth at all. The asteroid belt today is curiously named "Greeks" and "Trojans" … there is a long lineage in human history of applying the notion of Wars, Armies, Battles to the interactions of Planets entering/exiting the Asteroid Belt - and dragging/pulling/pushing their prisoners (comets/debris) along with them. One can look into the "Followers of Horus" any/all of Thutmose III's endeavours for a tiny sampling of additional evidence. Were the events witnessed during the period of time the stories were created? Or were they simply recounting previous generations observations. Up until a certain point in history I'd wager its probably both.
-The Ancients certainly were interested in the animals they hunted. Horned animals simply provided the visual connection to what was seen in the skies. Kind of like a crescent moon except lit from differing angles.
One can deduce any number of visual design aesthetics to seeming obscure irrational statements/observations/symbols from antiquity within the confines of a lab. The beautiful thing about Plasma is that it can be scaled/duplicated and directly observed.
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: punkinworks10
punkinworks10, the work of Kepler would indicate you do not need to know the gravitational constant, nor calculus, to determine a planet's orbital radius. Kepler's laws did not need either, however they are considered descriptions of a planet's motion, without understanding the whys. Newton was able to expand on Kepler's theories. Newton's laws of motion and universal law of gravity did that, and his development of calculus paved the way for understanding orbital mechanics.
So BM its your contention that a planetary orbit (average?) could have been determined by math (less) than calculus, but to fully understand how that number was derived and what it meant you would need calculus?
originally posted by: Hanslune
First off I don't have the math(s) ability to answer this question myself so if I could call upon the many gifted posters here to answer it.
One see's claims that the ancient knew the orbits of the inner (and outer) planets.
So what instruments, mathematics and skills would be required to obtain that information? The Europeans and others seemed to have worked on this problem for centuries until they resolved it.
So having placed the question I back away and hope that those more gifted by Saint Hubertus can answer it.
originally posted by: 131415
Hanslune:
From Wikipedia:
The word Shinto ("way of the gods") was adopted, originally as Shindo,[8] from the written Chinese Shendao (神道, pinyin: shén dào),[9][note 2] combining two kanji: "shin" (神?), meaning "spirit" or kami; and "tō" (道?), meaning a philosophical path or study (from the Chinese word dào).[6][9] The oldest recorded usage of the word Shindo is from the second half of the 6th century.[8] Kami are defined in English as "spirits", "essences" or "gods", referring to the energy generating the phenomena.[10]
There might not be a better description of the Philosophical/Religious Belief systems built on the Collective Observations by man within our Electric Universe. Or I don't know maybe you believe there's a guy that actually lives in the clouds? Or that Spirits - aren't the literal Sprites seen all over the world. Its ok if you do!
I actually quoted Hans Alfven - the Father of Plasma Science - no need to credit anyone else for regurgitating his findings. You seem to have a real "Thing" about authorship of information. Its a really horrible notion.
I've provided you with a unifying theory that all mythologies are derived originally from human observed celestial events. It doesn't need advanced calculus (which they didn't possess) to deduct gravitational theories that are all but insignificant in light of the last 60 years of legitimate scientific research. The written record is littered with actual depictions of the planetary orbits - some have even gone as far as to catalogue their appearances + rotations + length of stay.
But I guess that's off topic ?
originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
Hans, I have a question for you:
What is the ancient Egyptian hieroglyph for Pi?
Or for Phi?
Doesn't seem to exist, right?
Let's move forward to the Greek period, circa 400-200 BCE:
What is the Greek sign for Pi? π.
For Phi: ϕ.
If the ancient Egyptians had developed Pi or Phi, there would have been an impact on the language. A hieroglyph would have been used to represent it. They made extensive use of hieroglyphs for their numbers, some commonly used fractions had a special hieroglyph. Yet, a concept as bold as π or ϕ never entered into the Egyptian lexicon, as it did the Greek.
This is a little off topic, it's just a comment on the extent on ancient mathematics in some cultures.
originally posted by: Hanslune
First off I don't have the math(s) ability to answer this question myself so if I could call upon the many gifted posters here to answer it.
One see's claims that the ancient knew the orbits of the inner (and outer) planets.
So what instruments, mathematics and skills would be required to obtain that information? The Europeans and others seemed to have worked on this problem for centuries until they resolved it.
So having placed the question I back away and hope that those more gifted by Saint Hubertus can answer it.
originally posted by: Hanslune
originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
Hans, I have a question for you:
What is the ancient Egyptian hieroglyph for Pi?
Or for Phi?
Doesn't seem to exist, right?
Let's move forward to the Greek period, circa 400-200 BCE:
What is the Greek sign for Pi? π.
For Phi: ϕ.
If the ancient Egyptians had developed Pi or Phi, there would have been an impact on the language. A hieroglyph would have been used to represent it. They made extensive use of hieroglyphs for their numbers, some commonly used fractions had a special hieroglyph. Yet, a concept as bold as π or ϕ never entered into the Egyptian lexicon, as it did the Greek.
This is a little off topic, it's just a comment on the extent on ancient mathematics in some cultures.
Absolutely unless they used some other glyph (assigning a mathematically meaning to it or created a portmanteau of two glyphs - but then that's probably getting a bit far out on the pier of probability)
From what I've seen the AE lacked the mathematically framework to do orbits - even if they had come up with the idea of planets/solar system/etc.
Some Egyptologists[1] have concluded that the ancient Egyptians used an approximation of π in their monuments, as the Great Pyramid of Giza was built so that the circle whose radius is equal to the height of the pyramid has a circumference equal to the perimeter of the base (it is 1760 cubits around and 280 cubits in height).[2] Others have argued that the ancient Egyptians had no concept of π and would not have thought to encode it in their monuments. They argue, based on documents such as the Rhind papyrus, that the shapes of the pyramids are based on simple ratios of the sides of right angled triangles (the seked),[3] however, the Rhind Papyrus in fact shows that the seked was derived from the base and height dimensions, and not the converse.[4]
An Egyptian scribe named Ahmes wrote the oldest known text to imply an approximate value for π. The Rhind Mathematical Papyrus dates from the Egyptian Second Intermediate Period — though Ahmes stated that he copied a Middle Kingdom papyrus (i. e., from before 1650 BCE). In problem 48 the area of a circle was computed by approximating the circle by an octagon. The value of π is never mentioned or computed, however. If the Egyptians knew of π, then the corresponding approximation was 256/81.[3][5]