And this is where entitlement attitudes begin...

a reply to: onequestion

Great point. I'm entitled to take your lunch money because I'm big and trained to fight and have a bunch of like-minded friends and you have a personal responsibility to deal with it and not expect the government to enforce the law on me.

See that's the thing about rights and responsibilities - they are completely incapable of being enforced from a subjective point of view because they contradict. Your lack of entitlement to protection becomes my entitlement to victimize the weak. Your entitlement to retribution becomes my lack of entitlement to a fair trial.
That's why the law can't be ideological and can't really involve itself in things like rights responsibilities and entitlements with any consistency- it has to be absolute and regard actions and circumstances. A shall not happen, or B shall be the consequence. B must happen and shall be accomplished in the following manner. Etc. No one shall be harrassed/assaulted etc for example prevents me from attacking you with impunity and at the same time prevents you from dealing with me outside the law. Perhaps there should be exceptions, but the exceptions destroy the law, so a cost-benefit as analysis is needed before the law is made - either we will sacrifice our ideological conflicts with an absolute law against victimization, or we will roll the dice on being the victim - you don't get to have a functional modern society and your wild west ideals- it's one or the other.

And I assume you haven't checked out of modern society and gone somewhere where anything can happen and it's all up to you and circumstances. You probably prefer the safe unchallenging limited possibilities of paved streets and would be mad if the govt stopped maintaining them. I say you aren't entitled to those streets and you'd be a freer stronger person trekking aimlessly through the wilderness. But let's face it, streets are just better, and they are the law, they are paid for and in place, and you'd have grounds to complain if somehow you were excluded from that benefit that most people enjoy and got hurt as a result. All of the same things can be said about school staff protecting children at school.

a reply to: The Vagabond
You took this way out of context and way out I to left field.

a reply to: onequestion

I took it pretty far down the road but I don't see a left turn in the reasoning.

If I understand correctly you are saying that the child, a minor compelled by the government to leave the safety of home and go into a crowded high conflict environment, is not entitled to be protected from inappropriate behavior by other children under the government's care, but rather has a personal responsibility to correct the behavior of others that he encounters in a situation that he did not arrive in because of any decision of his own. I don't see any questioning of the government's entitlement to the child, of the other children's entitlement to misbehave, or the responsibility of the government to control the situation it creates in schools.

If the entitlement and need for responsibility begins with the victim, then basically you're arguing for might makes right. And the thing about might makes right is that it has a way of going pretty far down the road.

a reply to: The Vagabond

How about a little reasoning and logic?

For instance...

Teach your kid how to deal with bullies whole doing everything you can to help?

How about that?

a reply to: The Vagabond

Once again, people are assuming that this thread is all about the traditional thought that bullying = violence. It's not. It's also about the fact that bullying today is saying or doing anything that can embarrass or hurt someone's feelings. I said it in an earlier a post, and I'll say it again:

What happened to teaching kids that sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never hurt you?

Eventually kids have to leave the safety of their home and interact in the real world. One of the biggest parts of school used to be learning to survive in a social setting that did a pretty darned good job of imitating the social structures and types of people you'd spend your adult life encountering.

Since it doesn't seem you bothered to read the entire thread, I'll quote what I said in an earlier post, with added emphasis to what myself and others consider entitled behavior.

Humans are not composed of rainbows and lollipops and nothing but niceness. Kids need to learn how to handle criticism, rejection, name calling, unfair gossiping, etc. How does banning games where kids are left to pick their own teams teach a kid how to handle the rejection of getting turned down for a job or promotion as an adult? It doesn't. What it does is make them think that they're entitled to everything they want without them having to work harder to improve the skills needed to get that thing they want.

I'm not saying that a kid is not entitled to adult intervention when physical bullying is involved. However, I don't believe it's better to teach a kid to curl up in a ball and take a beating rather than fight back. I taught my children the same thing that I was taught. You don't start the fight, but you da*%ed well finish it. I don't promote violence as always being the solution, but I also don't promote not teaching kids to stand on their own two feet.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: onequestion

Counterpoint:

I taught mine to stand up and defend themselves against bullies. One did so, and was expelled for fighting. The zero tolerance policy that ALL schools have for violence now makes standing up to bullies literally illegal.

And what did you do to the school for bullying you

The school is dead wrong when / if they do not allow a child to stand up for their own rights, and you are just as wrong for not defending your child against that sort of unconstitutional assault. This is a case where the school is every bit as much a "bully" as the child who committed the original offence.

We hear of this sort of thing frequently; I have never seen a parent actually attempt to defend their child.

So...what are you teaching your kids? Stand up to individuals, buckle to the establishment?

Because I work in mental health, and because I have seen children either attempt suicide or actually successfully kill themselves over such things, let me give you an alternative perspective on this issue.

Back when I was a kid, and even when my kids were kids, we (and they) were not on the internet. Whatever bullying happened took place at school, at least we could get home and get AWAY from the bullying. If there was a neighborhood bully, because I had girls, I would go Momma Bear insane on their little butts, tell them I know where they live and where they sleep, and they'd better not mess with my kids or.....well, you get my drift.

The problem with internet bullying is different, because of two things: Firstly, the kid CANNOT escape the bullying. It is 24/7. Secondly, EVERYBODY can see it, so it isn't like when we were younger and there was just one or two jerks making fun, it is broadcast to everyone. It compounds the stress, makes it impossible to escape, and the way people behave online, particularly kids, is horrific.

For example, if ATS didn't have T&C's, it would devolve into utter chaos, insults, and lots of hurt feelings. To be shamed in such a way is almost like being shamed on TV or in a newspaper....everybody sees it, and everybody chimes in.

Please do not assume that kids are being spoiled brats when they are needing help with internet bullying, because it is so much more intense and upsetting than face to face encounters. Parents, STEP IN, because the repercussions from the bullying are real, and kids will choose a permanent solution to a very temporary problem. Some children are battling with suicide in their own family, and often choose the same sad fate when they get upset enough.

In memory of this beautiful child, who hung herself on a Sunday night rather than go back to school on Monday and face the shame after horrific things were posted on her Facebook page that had gone around the town and made her into a pariah.

cbs7.com...

a reply to: onequestion

No truer words were ever spoken. Not a good way to teach a child how to deal with reality.

a reply to: The Vagabond

YES. Couldn't have said it better myself. The kid is forced into that environment BY LAW, and then they have to deal with a bunch of psychotic animals who thrive on bullying. The teachers and administrators are useless, as a rule, and tend to allow certain psychos with manipulative charm to continue to make the lives of other children a living hell.

My older kiddo ended up being jumped by three kids, and she fought back...admirably, as she had the flesh of the bullies under her fingernails when I picked her up for being suspended for defending herself. The principal stated that she should have told a teacher...which was laughable, as she had three jackals on her in the hallway, how was she supposed to get help? What I told the principal cannot be repeated on this website.

a reply to: halfpint0701

Let me also clarify I'm not promoting violence either. Teaching your kid boxing and or Jiu jitsu is for co fidence discipline and exposure.

BUTT it's also to keep them alive if a situation calls for it or if they do confidently stand up to someone or a situation goes south they can walk away.

I've lived in some bad areas and let me tell you I am glad I knew a little jits.

a reply to: FissionSurplus

I see your point but why can't you just turn off the computer?

I had to deal with serious bullying when I grew up. It's actually why I became a fighter in the first place. They used to wait for me at the end of the street because we had to walk to school everyday and they would run up and grab me and pull me I to the ally and beat me and take all my stuff.

This went on for years until I was about ten years old. Well they all used to cut through my neighbors yard and I was friends with my neighbor and one day one of the kids was walking through the yard and my and my neighbor were sitting on her back porch and he didn't see us. Well he walked by the porch and I jumped off the porch onto his back and he hit the ground and his arm broke.

Let me tell you this kid NEVER tried to bully me again and he actually came to me after that incident and we became buddies for a while.

That wasn't the first time. I was playing football for a few years at that point and I was a linebacker. Well the head kid of that group who used to bully all the kids in town was sitting down the street with all the kids in town sitting there and his buddy came up to me and told me he wanted to fight me 1 on 1. Obviously I declined I told him I wasn't going to let the, jump me. Well he point down the street and said look the whole neighborhood is there we won't jump in. So I looked down the street and saw all the kids I knew from the area. Well long story short I b lined it for the kid and tackled him before he could see me and beat the crap out of him in front of everyone.

Before this I had NEVER fought back before in my life. After, they never messed with me again they left me alone. Eventually more of those kids stood up to this moron and his buddies.

I'm just highlighting this experience to show you that I've delt with serious bullying, and it was bad. My father went to the school because I would come home bleeding everyday.

a reply to: Hefficide

the reason for this is simple:

bullies aren't always the tougher/bigger ones.
often a fight can be a "he-said, she-said"-type scenario
thus zero-tolerance is basically to say "I don't care who started it, you're both fighting, you're both in trouble".

a reply to: onequestion

Which is exactly why my daughters were put into martial arts when they were four. My oldest (now 19) has Turner's Syndrome so at the age of 5 she was the size of a 2 yr old. Apparently being a tomboy is genetic because she was a natural at it and currently holds black belts in karate, jujitsu, and tae kwon do. She was also the only girl on the wrestling team from age 6 - 10, and finished her wrestling career without ever having been pinned.

Now, after 3 years of growth hormones as a teenager, she has topped out 4'8". She has never once felt like her size makes her vulnerable as a victim because Martial Arts and wrestling gave her both the confidence to defend herself against those bigger than her AND the knowledge and discipline to know when to walk away.

a reply to: tanka418

I did what was within my legal venue to do. In this case I was a step-parent so the ex and I demanded a meeting and a reconsideration of the expulsion. This ended up being something that was made to appear to be a formal hearing ( by the school ) though it wasn't. A school board lawyer was present, as were several teachers and administrators.

We were told to bring material witnesses who could testify on the childs behalf.

In the end the "hearing" changed nothing. I doubt it ever had the capacity or intent to. I feel it was just an appeasement measure.

However, the kid did get to see caring adults stand up to authority and tell it like it is.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Hefficide

That's another issue.

So as a parent what do you do?

Do you not teach your kid that responsability apply to personal safety as well? Do you not teach them to stand up to bullies?

I disagree. I think it is the same issue. It is all connected. The State simply does not allow parents to teach their children appropriate social behavior. They force us to teach our children to stay in lock-step, do not complain, and above all, do not think for yourself. It is getting harder and harder to teach our children how to be respectful, resourceful, and even thoughtful.

Parents are not allowed to teach their children to stand up for themselves appropriately. If you teach a child that there comes a point to fight the child risks being expelled, or possibly even a criminal record if they do.

Parents are not allowed to discipline their children (which is where more of the social "entitlement" issue is coming from in my opinion). If you spank your child, or even speak harshly to them in public you risk the wrath of CPS and having your children taken. There are new studies saying "time out" is no good now and I suspect it is only a matter of time before even that stand-by is taken. Instead, when the child acts out we are supposed to give them attention and sit and talk it out... Ever try to talk it out with a four year old in a full-on, wall-eyed fit? It doesn't work. I am the adult, I am not going to negotiate with toddlers. It is ridiculous.

Parents are not allowed to encourage or foster independence in their children. When I was a child as young as five I was running around the neighborhood with other children unattended by adults. By the time I was ten I was miles from home in the country-side fishing or exploring on my own. I was babysitting other small children when I was 11; not just as a chore but as a summer job.

If I allowed my daughter to do ANY of things now, once again, I would be dealing with the authorities and fighting to keep her. There is no common sense anymore, there are only state applied mandates. If they let parents raise their own children a lot of this entitlement mess would disappear.

I was at a bus-stop once in a fairly big city. There was a very wealthy, elderly woman exiting the building in front of the bus-stop...she walked over to me (adorned with expensive jewelry in a bright red dress);

She said; even you are entitled to 50 acres...and then she was gone. I didn't get the chance to respond, because what she said blew me away.

This was during a time I began looking for a place to leave this old dying heart in a big deep hole that would/could contain it, it ate me alive...in my early 20s.

That old heart that desired everything the Jones' had, but had no motivation to gain it off the back of another...

But I was different, awkward, and didn't look like everyone else...ambidextrous too.

My father asked me why just one kid is not able to bully me, but 5 are?
My answer was because I allowed them to.

Was it a rite of passage to teach each boy one at a time why not to bully me? (loyal and honest; a good friend) It seemed a waste of time after the majority decide it's better being friends in the first place...original bully still had it in for me, though. I tended to be likable after all...

Teaching children how to respect the boundaries of others should happen in the family home.
How children are nurtured prior to entering public/private school lays in the hands of the parent.

Can't rely on Gov. because they're too busy trippin' over common-sense trying to gain all the dollars.

Maybe someone can tell where I'm steering at?

a reply to: The Vagabond


The now so common default method of handling fighting in school is awful. Students could respect, back in the day, a guy that stood up for themselves. That's been taken away as a real world teaching tool. The trouble maker is now the same as the defender. Cant say I totally blame school administrators for not wanting to sort the thing out but they used to.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: tanka418

I did what was within my legal venue to do. In this case I was a step-parent so the ex and I demanded a meeting and a reconsideration of the expulsion. This ended up being something that was made to appear to be a formal hearing ( by the school ) though it wasn't. A school board lawyer was present, as were several teachers and administrators.

We were told to bring material witnesses who could testify on the childs behalf.

In the end the "hearing" changed nothing. I doubt it ever had the capacity or intent to. I feel it was just an appeasement measure.

However, the kid did get to see caring adults stand up to authority and tell it like it is.

While I am sympathetic with the "step-parent" aspect...I would have demanded meeting and a reconsideration in the Superior Court in and for the County of...

Schools and school districts are not a part of the justice system, and therefore have no authority to conduct a hearing. Except perhaps in an administrative capacity. In the case of most actions like this I think we will see that the school will have clearly violated the rights of the child. And of course; the child has the exact same rights as any adult. Thus, the school, school district, Superintendents, and any other involved faculty will have committed a federal offence...a felony under United States law. The simple act of detaining a child without "due process" is a violation of the child's Constitutional Rights...and therefore a felony.

Further, I am of the opinion that it is better to fight even if it is a losing proposition; it will still serve to teach the child to stand up for themselves. I also feel it is the parents responsibility to protect the child and his rights...at what ever cost.

a reply to: onequestion

I don't see any reasoning or logic there, just a vague proposal that someone who isn't there assist the child.

I've been down this road too and I understand that we aren't necessarily talking about violence, but we also aren't merely talking about rejection or anything an adult would normally face in the real world, short of Marine Corps basic training, (where with nothing but words and the prospect of embarrassment and mild discomfort drill instructors induce so much stress that it makes people hard enough to withstand a fight to the death, but please somebody go on saying some more about how non physical bullying has no effect).

I was six foot and 200 pounds by 7th grade and learned karate though the YMCA, and I went to schools that were 80-90% non white and had occasional race brawls. Very few bullies ever wanted to come to blows with me, at least not 1 on 1. They were much happier to surround me at a safe distance and follow me around- if I ignored mocking questions it became insults, if I ignored insults they would throw things at me, if I ignored that they'd spit on me. I gave it right back to them- the insults, the mocking, throwing stuff. If you got away from me at the time I'd come up behind you at lunch and dump a soda on you in front of your friends or come up and bitch slap you in front of a girl, whatever it took to make you swing so I could be right when I grabbed you by the throat and started whomping on you. I didn't always even wait for violence before I tuned somebody up for their bullying. None of that helped. I couldn't have a conversation with friends, I couldn't ever let down my guard that somebody might steal from me or foul my drink or sneak up behind me and take a pot shot- I was under stress every day - my only relief was a couple classes where nobody who targeted me was seated near me.

I nearly ended up in inpatient psychiatric care at one point - the doc said there was nothing wrong with me. I was hauled into the office and grilled a day after the Columbine massacre because only my side of things had been noticed- I dont think the school wanted to notice because 10 Mexicans hovering around one huge white guy who is scowling and powerwalking around campus hoping they'll lose interest isn't exactly inconspicuous.

I turned into a very quiet very grim threatening and violent person from that. Until about age 20 I threatened to kill people just as a matter of course when I had problems, because I figured the adult world was much the same only higher stakes and less supervised. Boy was I wrong - the problem vanished on adult life and I finally got to chill out and become a fairly nice person. I've dealt with some minor bs in the marines and construction jobs but nothing that approaches my school experience. Kids don't know any better and school is a unique and unnatural environment. The parents aren't there and aren't listened to, the kids can't go away, they are harmed if they absorb it, violence doesn't solve the problem completely and causes other problems - meanwhile you have someone who couldn't get a real job drawing a govt check to supervise this environment and produce kids who can function in society and they are turning a blind eye. If we're gonna talk about entitlement and responsibilities lets get around to the school staff eventually.

Agree fully with the OP.

At the risk of sounding callous, I have to say that violence can sometimes prevail. Getting parents and teachers involved can sometimes make the situation worse for the victim.

Fact is they won't always have an adult around to help them, exaserbating the situation in the short term could lead to more serious long term problems.

I don't have kids but if I do they'll be taught how to stand up for themselves, and taught that standing up for yourself and others is necessary in the real world.

I remember a few cases in school where the bullied lost control and took charge of the situation...things changed for the beter for them after that as bullies tend to target those who they think are weak.

On the occasions where victims involved parents, etc...thinks tended to get worse - words like "grass" and expressions like "snitches get stitches" come to mind.

You can't always rely on others to help, not even your parents...my dad was quite old fashioned, not a violent person but never a victim. His attitude was this, in a nutshell - "If they hit you then you hit them back, if you get beat down trying then at least you tried and if you inflict pain in the process they'll think twice in future...in short, if you get beat and don't fight back you'll get a clip around the ear from me and I won't be so proud of you."

My own personally view is pretty much that, if someone's gonna hit me then I'm gonna hit them back, rather go down fighting than stand and be someone's punching bag.