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It isn't a gift if there are strings attached: my answer to monotheists.

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posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:23 PM
If I give my girlfriend a sweater I made with my own hands and she rips it up and uses it for dishrags and I become angry with her for doing that, then I haven't really given her a gift, but I've given her an obligation. A gift is supposed to be for the enjoyment of the recipient, not the enjoyment of the giver, and if a giver isn't mature or virtuous enough to understand that, then maybe they should remain in the safety of selfishness where their egos most certainly belong.

It may be imprudent to be ungrateful for something someone has done for you and they might not be willing to be in your life for very long if you just disregard all the things they give you; however, as a bestower of things, you should be prepared for them to do whatever they desire with what you have given to them and be gracious about it.

If God created the world and gave us this place and our freedom, then there shouldn't be any strings attached whatsoever. Our gratitude might secure for us a future relationship with him, but we shouldn't be obligated to owe him anything whatsoever.

Honestly, I think unless a gift is given anonymously and is given unconditionally, then it isn't a gift at all.

To God (or whomever created this world and established my initial conditions of freedom): Thank you, now please tell all your spokespeople to back off so I can actually enjoy that which you've bestowed upon me, please!

Also, I think the attitude of stinginess is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you constantly tell yourself that you don't have enough to find a way to share your gifts with others, you'll awaken to find one day that you don't have enough, and you'll spend your entire life chasing after more and more to no satisfaction whatsoever. This tells me certainly that the current conditions of the world stand in direct opposition to the laws of nature and will eventually come undone.

Just think of what Jesus's example of feeding the 5000 represents. He didn't have enough, so as he went to feed each person, all of the others were envious and then when they got their share, they were surprised and delighted. Jesus told himself that there was plenty enough for everyone and in defiance of your laws of scarcity, there was enough for everyone. If there are to be miracles in the world the principle cause of those miracles must be a being of extreme generosity and virtue who no longer wishes to observe a world where people live shackled by lies. That is who I think the real God is, if he's out there. He's standing on the sidelines screaming, "Be generous!" All the while the rest of us squabble over what we've already been given.
edit on 10 10 2014 by Nechash because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:46 PM
a reply to: Nechash

Mark 2:23 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

The bible agrees with you. It is not God that needs man to evolve to spiritual unification, but it is something that we need for us.

The true Sabbath is the 1000 year reign of light/Christ. Where mankind will finally understand the benefit of unification and let go of the pains of separation.

The age of light/love has been predicted many times. The age of enlightenment comes when all look within and find their true self, what humans are meant to be. Son's of the light, living according to that wich guides us from within.

Add - You think God's people are the one telling you that they can give you the secret knowledge and path to heaven if you attend their church and give them money? Maybe they are a little confused and have mistaken materialism for spirituality?

edit on 10-10-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:50 PM
Just as He gave you the choice to follow Him or not, you also have ears to hear and eyes to see. Use them. If you don't want to see or hear the message, don't. But don't tell people not speak it because what about the others who may want to hear it? What right do you have to deny them for your own selfish comfort?
edit on 10-10-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:51 PM
a reply to: Nechash

The gift is not a present, but the present (time). It's an opportunity that is open. We have received the gift already. It's a chance to once again walk in the Spirit of truth and not the darkness of ignorance. Taking the gift denies ignorance.

The gift is what it produces (fruit) if used, which is the essence of what is given. Taking the gift is the key to receiving the gift. Taking the gift then produces fruit. If the tree is withered and bears no fruit, then the gift is rejected. It's as simple as that. It's always offered. Does it require something of the person? Yes, to take it into use.

The gift is not the fruit, but the light, water and soil that produces the fruit.

When you give your girlfriend a material item, you are giving her something to wear on the outside. This gift is worn on the inside. It produces the new robe you then receive as a reflection of the suffering of the saints. You know if you have received the gift by the fruits that are produced.

Galatians 5

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

When did you receive the gift? After Jesus ascended.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

It's the opportunity we were given by proclamation, or the release of the captives. That was the sign of Jonah, or 3 days in the belly of the Earth. Rising in the water is not sinking. Noah and the flood is baptism. You are in the ARK now. Resurrection of the dead is the beast in the water in pairs.

It's not being given the gift that counts, it's what you do to apply it. That takes suffering and work. It's a process of transformation or it is not taken.
edit on 10-10-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:53 PM
The bible can be made to say almost whatever you want it to say. There were Pauline cults in the past that engaged in mass orgies because they taught it was impossible for them to sin, because Christ had already forgiven everything they would ever do.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 04:55 PM
a reply to: ketsuko

I'm not talking about speech. I'm talking about meddling. If we could go back to the Hellenic era when Christians stood on the steps to the Temple of Jupiter and just spoke their minds, I'd be all for that, although I'd like to take the internet with us if we could. ;p

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 05:00 PM
a reply to: AlephBet

See, here's the problem I have, much of what you say I agree with wholeheartedly, but there's mixed with it things that just don't resonate as true to my soul and when I see those things, I can't embrace your teaching.

Can't you love the light and independence? Can't you embrace virtue and passion? Can't you have an inner peace that surpasses the material temptations and squabbling noises of this world without giving into this concept of unity and self-denial?

I think you are offering a false-dilemma here, a chimera of ideas that do not belong together.

I am a being of light and sorcery. I am a being of joy and witchcraft. I am a being of peace and independence. I have no need for king or unity, although a little bit of mutualistic cooperation might be nice.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 05:02 PM
That's the basis of the Zeitgeist Movement. There's plenty for everyone if we aren't selfish or wasteful.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 05:06 PM
a reply to: tavi45

I enjoy the Zeitgeist movement on most of its features. The core problem I have is the idea of creating another massively powerful centralized government which would probably lead us back towards totalitarianism.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 05:16 PM
a reply to: Nechash

I understand believing in independence and life without a king. But you are not an independent creation, the world is not subjected to your whim.

We were created for the purpose of humanity over the purpose of self. If all lived according to the purpose of humanity the idea of spiritual self would be separated from the physical self.

In our spirit we should understand and embrace the divine law that unifies. In the flesh we should cherish the devine law that separates.

The goal is not to forget about the flesh but to rather direct the flesh in the direction of the spirit. If you want adrenaline jump out of a plane, enjoy your flesh without harming others.

In this way physically we may be separate in what we find pleasurable, but spiritually we should believe in the law of one, unification of mankind.

It doesn't matter what you call the devine driving force, king is just one name for the light within.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 05:35 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25

You don't know me. The world is actually kind of subjected to my whims all the time wherever I go. I try to be as prudent as possible with those whims, but unfortunately I'm kind of bizarre and non-conforming. I accept a model of liberty that has my rights extending out as far as they possibly can without injuring the person next to me. I think theft, mayhem, rape, assault, murder, fraud, usury, slavery and pollution are really the only "sins" that should actually exist and everything else should just pretty much be free form.

I would honestly like to see a more mutually cooperative society where we are more responsible with our resources and we do have more commonly owned utilities and companies and things like that, but I'd like to see that world spring forward organically from people cooperating together because doing so is in their best interest, not because they were told to do so by some powerful people with resources. If your idea isn't good enough to convince the person next to you of its merits, then it isn't good enough. This idea of using the tools of government to strongarm each other into doing what we want all the time is morally depraved in my mind.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 06:51 PM

originally posted by: Nechash
If I give my girlfriend a sweater I made with my own hands and she rips it up and uses it for dishrags and I become angry with her for doing that, then I haven't really given her a gift, but I've given her an obligation. A gift is supposed to be for the enjoyment of the recipient, not the enjoyment of the giver, and if a giver isn't mature or virtuous enough to understand that, then maybe they should remain in the safety of selfishness where their egos most certainly belong.

I might be off the mark here, but.

The gift you are alluding to is not a sweater to ward of cold, though it does have a similar purpose.

I am assuming you are referring to Christ as the gift.
So the gift is Christ as a substitute for our judgement, or more accurately, He pays the fine for our sin, being death.

The obligation of life is set out in the laws of the Old Testament, they are not a gift as such, but laws. Break those laws and you will have to pay a price of restitution.
The laws are simple and defined to help people live self fulfilling and productive lives with a view to compensation for crimes, they also take in to account the world and its brokenness. The laws are not made for a perfect world because the world is not perfect any more. The sweater is a valid and reasonable gift, if its torn and used for a dish cloth then you would wonder how much you know and understand your girlfriends needs.
It would be better, more practical to have gifted her a dishcloth.

If it was cold and your girlfriend was suffering the extremes of the weather then anger, though proportional, would be a reasonable response.
You have made a statement in a void, you have made it black and white when very little is black and white.

Be generous is not the message, accept the free gift of Christ is the message. Jesus is the sweater and judgement for sin is the cold extremities, death is the sentence.
Like the sweater many tear it up and use it as a rag, neglecting His life saving actions.

Yes we (Christians) are called to be generous, though that is not the message.
Are you saying others are as well, where?

The gift doesnt have any strings, people wont be punished for refusing Christ as the gift, they will be punished for breaking Gods law.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 07:06 PM
a reply to: borntowatch

I was referring more to the gifts of this life and our free will in the first place before the idea of the law came in as an obligation to bind us towards rectification.

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 08:00 PM
In My opinion as a "common passerby"--- You are 'The Creator' working Your way back to 'The One Infinite Creator' No "rule book" needed.. It is indeed "Your World" the rest of Us are just in it...

It is whatever You want it to be, as it is "Your World"...


posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 08:37 PM
a reply to: Nechash

I feel that there is a great depth of beauty in the diversity of our perspectives. In our own minds, our 'truth' seems so self-evident and obvious that it seems to give rise to superiority though. I think that can change, and is perhaps an evolutionary inevitably as it leads to faster and more efficient growth.

The concept of conversion is quite pervasive though, far beyond the bounds of any single ideology. Regardless, I think it is more productive to pursue how we can explore this place together rather than argue whose glasses are less broken.

Our cultural story is based on tearing down what others have built to supply our own efforts. It does lead to results, but is not comparable to what could be built if the parties were to pool their resources, creativity, and gifts to build something together.
edit on 10-10-2014 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 08:45 PM
a reply to: Serdgiam

Do you have any specific suggestions?

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 10:35 PM
Why do you waste so much time and energy arguing against a 'God' you don't believe in?

Frankly, I don't even think that one exists...

...You might like the 'God' I believe in though, He thinks just like you do and likes you just the way you are.... strings attached - He's happy just to Love you...

posted on Oct, 10 2014 @ 11:35 PM
a reply to: Nechash

If it's done properly thered be no purpose. But yeah I get your point. I just haven't seen a better idea proposed yet.

posted on Oct, 11 2014 @ 05:59 AM
If you gave your girlfriend a jumper (sweater) you had knitted and she tore it up and used it for rags, she could no longer wear it as a jumper. If you misuse the life and universe God has given you then you can't use them for life and sustaining life any more.

posted on Oct, 11 2014 @ 09:14 AM
a reply to: Cinrad

I'll accept that axiom. ;p

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