Give ISIS their state...

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport
That I did read. Dont ask. You seem to be new to the internet as well.

Yup, since literally its first day. I am running forums since then too, btw.

Defending people who openly plan on hurting my people, kill their own people in the thousands, live by an ethos of might makes right, will not bring out butterflies. Maybe you should be on a forum supporting open terrorism.

I don't care. I am not entering a discussion to pat everyone on the back and sink into the fluffy pillows (and sipping wine), but to exchange arguments, learn new things, correct my views if justified and explore different angles of views, else I could go and sit with my buddies. And I am well prepared to sometimes end up with the fact that the mebers of a discussion have to agree to disagree on an issue - which would not lead me to calling names (that is apparently your specialty).

Terrorism is a random and fahsion word today - last weeks terrorist are todays freedom fighters and todays freedom fighters can be tomorrow terrorist again. As a glowing example just have a look into what happens in Turkey in the last 3 days. So, I am very careful whether or not using this word, I prefer to call people who fight "fighters" and not to impress my own ideology, even less emotions, onto them. I don't support "terrorism" for the sake of it (and that is what the name ooriginally means, causing fear) - but who am I that can differentiate if they are fighting for a good cause, in their way of thinking, in their beliefs, in their own values?

If IS is killed tomorrow, I, honestly, do not care at all, because groups and even nations come and go, but what remains is the underlying belief, culture and ideologic system, and it will soon surface again in maybe an even less controllable or more dangerous way.
They could move, for example, to Pakistan, they could move to Libya, to Nigeria, to Somalia. It is like trying to manually extract some bacteria that sticks in your skin, and by doing so, you will trigger even more bacteria to enter the body - rather than enigneering something that makes the bacteria powerless and then extracting it.

We might end up following them around the world and dropping bombs here and there, high and low. Which might be do-able, for which we might mind enough allies. But what is being achieved with it? Economic growth born of military expansions? Mixture of the ethnic genetic set due to millions and millions of refugees? Decreasing general wealth (make them even) for many countries of the third world (and even the first)?

Your argument was flawed. ISIS killed as many people as they did and saying that civil war between a slightly different faction than them or even the aggression of western forces as somehow being justification or the actual source of blame isnt discussion. Its fantasy.

Well, first you want to see numbers. If they don't add for you, you call them fantasy. It is a nice rhetoric move - have you been a politician once - but it won't lead anywhere.
The "slightly" different factions are, for the people there, massively different. I talked about protestants and catholics - those and their various subfactions are sometimes massively different for us, while for a muslim, they are all quite the same. I did, btw, not lame anyone at all, I just mentioned that there are no tens of thousands of massacred people and I said that OTHER factions in the region are doing quite the same (so why single out this one especially?). I _do_ agree that there is a massive killing going on, but I do not blame just one side for it - and this is not a fantasy, it is simply like it is.
BTW - did you read the witness reports of refugees who said that the IS fighters were not the main problem (for them), but the main problem (for them) was that after the fighters went through, their neighbours of the same faith as the IS, with whom they lived peaceful together for many years, acted upon them? Did you read those reports telling why the iraqi soldiers threw away the weapons and ran (they did not want to give their lives for THIS regime, although they did not like the IS either). This shows that the things aren't all as easy as we would like them to be, and being as such, the solution won't be easy either.

Like I said, I don't care about IS, I am actually fond of the idea of "Put a barbed wire around the whole region, the western countries are powerful enugh to do it, let (if any) only civilians out, dont let any weapons go in ... and then just wait". But I do think that weapons won't help against ideologies, they will only mute them, temporarily - and in the end, we are facing the same menace, but we have invested a years worth of economic power with dprived our OWN people of it ... for nothing.

a reply to: carport

TLDR,

really,

too absurd, DR

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport

TLDR,

really,

too absurd, DR

Which concludes our discussion then.

a reply to: carport

You lost me at "

So, my vote goes for: Let them have their state

Everything else you said which I will assume was slightly about myself or my personal sentiment or something was retarded on your part. What? You thought you could lead me into an emotional diatribe about numbers neither you nor myself have seen in person?

KISS

They want a radical Islamic caliphate and kill to get it. I say kill them. You say, give them what they want, they are justified. I disagree and you then go into baseless liberalism foaming at the mouth mode. After that its all BS.

a reply to: tadaman

Try being brutally raped and then having your children sawed into pieces in front of your family. Sure. A US soldier is so much worse than that….

Do you alway put statements into others input? Who mentioned rapists? Who mentioned soldiers?

I mentioned international law. You cry rape. I call a halt to waging aggressive war. You compare that to sawing people in half.

Nice try.

Next you will tell me a dull knife is more dangerous than a 2000 pound bomb.

originally posted by: intrptr

Next you will tell me a dull knife is more dangerous than a 2000 pound bomb.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand was killed with one bullet to the jugular, resulting in World War I with over 37 million deaths [Both military and civilian casualties]

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: intrptr

Next you will tell me a dull knife is more dangerous than a 2000 pound bomb.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand was killed with one bullet to the jugular, resulting in World War I with over 37 million deaths [Both military and civilian casualties]

Still missing the point, the U.S. in all probability allowed Japan to bomb Pearl harbour as a pretext to enter WW2, casualties due to them unknown but I'm guessing millions, there is no point with that logic.

And the main question stands, what are the reasons for ISIS' existence?

a reply to: SLAYER69

I did think that a country for people of these religious convictions would be a good idea - keep them isolated from the rest of the world.

However, lookingaat the number of children many immigrant families have I suspect the new found state would fill itself up quite quickly and they would be looking to expand using their old methods.

Also what would stop them from launching their hate campaign against the western freedom countries as well as other countries not islamic?

I think these people have to be hung out to dry and forced to be made accountable for the murder and misery they have perpetuated, not rewarded by giving them a state.

Funny how the so religious minded men always think that rape is a great thing to indulge in. You would have thought that rape would have been regarded as a very bad thing and anti god thing to do before we even hit murder - but that's islam for you - no reasoning no sense and plenty of brutality.

Another we misunderstand the beast thread.Frustrated are they?By that reasoning so was jack the ripper.Perhaps he and like minded should have been given their own country as well for some hell on earth.Smh in disgust.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

And the main question stands, what are the reasons for ISIS' existence?

Their belief in the creation of what they perceive as a True Islamic/Muslim Empire. [A Caliphate]

Sounds like they are not only angry at the West, as you're so myopically fixated on but also, disillusioned with presently established Islamic States. This is exactly why Countries Like Iran, Iraq, Syria as well as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Turkey and a few others should be and are very concerned.

If they were just angry at the West they would have just targeted Westerners, They have also killed both Sunni and Shiites, Which gets ignored. Give them a country? Why? They are hell bent on bringing their version of Islam to a neighborhood near you.

Hey, if you're ok with that concept then by all means, indulge/entertain yourself. I personally will consider them no better than the Extremists they are.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

And the main question stands, what are the reasons for ISIS' existence?

Their belief in the creation of what they perceive as a True Islamic/Muslim Empire. [A Caliphate]

Sounds like they are not only angry at the West, as you're so myopically fixated on but also, disillusioned with presently established Islamic States. This is exactly why Countries Like Iran, Iraq, Syria as well as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Turkey and a few others should be and are very concerned.

If they were just angry at the West they would have just targeted Westerners, They have also killed both Sunni and Shiites, Which gets ignored. Give them a country? Why? They are hell bent on bringing their version of Islam to a neighborhood near you.

Hey, if you're ok with that concept then by all means, indulge/entertain yourself. I personally will consider them no better than the Extremists they are.

I never said give them their own country and nor is it a case of 'being ok with them'. Do you not think that had the West not meddled with other countries then they may not even exist?

Their belief in the creation of what they perceive as a True Islamic/Muslim Empire. [A Caliphate]

I think the beheading videos say something different

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
Still missing the point

Well you can lead a horse to water. Try to keep up.

the U.S. in all probability allowed Japan to bomb Pearl harbour as a pretext to enter WW2

The US knew there would be an attack, yes, I agree. It didn't know exactly where nor how severe. Roosevelt, couldn't just declare war as the American people were at the time mostly against joining the European or Asian conflicts.

Given the nature of and considering [Japanese and German atrocities and war crimes] you seem to think war with and defeating Japan was a bad thing?

there is no point with that logic.

Agreed.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
Still missing the point

Well you can lead a horse to water. Try to keep up.

the U.S. in all probability allowed Japan to bomb Pearl harbour as a pretext to enter WW2

The US knew there would be an attack, yes, I agree. It didn't know exactly where nor how severe. Roosevelt, couldn't just declare war as the American people were at the time mostly against joining the European or Asian conflicts.

Given the nature of and considering [Japanese and German atrocities and war crimes] you seem to think war with and defeating Japan was a bad thing?

there is no point with that logic.

Agreed.

I think war is a bad thing period, in this day & age surely we should've learned new ways to sort out differences but alas

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

I think war is a bad thing period, in this day & age surely we should've learned new ways to sort out differences but alas

Agreed

Yet, you seem to be ok with and defend a group of Religious zealots waging their "Holy/Jihad" war on everyone to the point of wanting to reward them with their own State.

Meh.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

I think war is a bad thing period, in this day & age surely we should've learned new ways to sort out differences but alas

Agreed

Yet, you seem to be ok with and defend a group of Religious zealots waging their "Holy/Jihad" war on everyone to the point of wanting to reward them with their own State.

Meh.

You misunderstand, I'm not defending them and once again, I never said give them their own state, I'm asking why they exist in the first place

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Then I stand corrected.


My Sausage and biscuits are getting cold.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Then I stand corrected.


My Sausage and biscuits are getting cold.

Think your bread was mouldy as well mate haha

originally posted by: zatara
Frustration because nobody ever did listen to them, take them serious and lack of attention.

Many of these ISIS soldiers are not aware that somebody is using this frustration for its own interest. Probably all but a handfull ISIS soldiers are not aware they are being used.

In this time and age It is unreal that forcing their religion onto others....or die... will result in peace on Earth. It is unreal and a fantasy to think that they will succeed. Just that fact makes me think that their fight is part of a much greater plan and agenda. Somebody is playing a sick game of chess in the middle east.

Anyways, it is what it is and their religious conviction will not go away. We do not want ISIS people disturbing the peace on our streets and livingrooms. Would the whole ISIS cisis not be solved by giving them their own country, make the United Nations acknowledge their turf as a country.


Hopefully these people will be content and happy among themselves and new founded nation and we, the non believers can all return to our favorite soap on TV and worry by daylight about the next crisis.

Frustration? Being ignored? These people already had the entire world fuss over them with the whole Syrian debacle. Obama supported and armed them in Syria. On a planet with near 7 billion people, this group makes up about 2 one thousandths of a percent of the population but is getting a major portion of the attention.

You claim that most of these fighters don't know they are being used...but you still want to give them a place to be used in.

You acknowledge that, "It is unreal that forcing their religion onto others....or die... will result in peace on Earth. It is unreal and a fantasy to think that they will succeed. Just that fact makes me think that their fight is part of a much greater plan and agenda. Somebody is playing a sick game of chess in the middle east."

So you propose we accept the sick game of chess and support it?

Your solution is to give them a country based on the idea that it will ...what? Make them stop? Make them less hostile? Become pacifist atheists?

Are you actually asking anybody to buy this?

You just laid out every good reason to make sure this never happens and then you expect that we should support it. Your only reason is because you think it will allow you to , (your words) "return to our favorite soap on TV and worry by daylight about the next crisis."

I think you should save up your paper route money and go open a honey baked ham franchise in the new ISIS republic.

a reply to: carport

This is just the first half if 2014!!!

Given that they've been fighting since 2007ish I guess we can estimate tens of thousands!!!

a reply to: 8fl0z

islam and every one of its followers need to be removed from the face of this earth.

islam is a threat to humanity, and our future - we must kill them before they kill us.

Are you going to remove me personally???

I'd like to see that!!!