Give ISIS their state...

a reply to: zatara

youre wrong. islam and every one of its followers need to be removed from the face of this earth.

islam is a threat to humanity, and our future - we must kill them before they kill us.

ISIS has their country…it's Saudi Arabia.

They have the same extreme Wahhabism as they do.

If they want that they should go there.

This ISIS thing may turn out to be the beginning of real bad stuff like WWIII.

They are like in the zombie and vampire movies with these crazies going about.

Bottom line the US is ultimately responsible since they overthrew Saddam.

With Saddam there wouldn’t have EVER been any ISIS.

The Arabs still need a strong man to rule them, that’s just how it is.

But the Zionist and neocons want to make Syria like Iraq and Libya.

They want Obama to attack Assad and ISIS1

A real bad deal that may start WWIII

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Then it will COST them until they stop.

Stop what, defending their homeland?

Double standard.

originally posted by: carport

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: zatara
Nobody should ever listen to idiots that shout the name of God and then kill people thinking they are doing him a favor.

I couldn't agree more - but what is about the people shouting "in God we trust" and then drop bombs? Is that a lot more intelligent? Fundamentally speaking?

If it were true you would have a point there, but no one ever says that here before they drop bombs, they just drop the bombs.

But not Islamic states. They do it all literally. They shout out loud "God is great" but then show how they are not great by murdering people. Quite a different issue and much more an immediate danger.

Right now if terrorists stepped up their plans and tripled their numbers, could still not match the damage to America that Obama, their own Arab brother (at least in money and weapons given), has done with tyrannical communist regime style changes, and ruling b y fiat and by decree.

a reply to: intrptr

What are they defending when they kill off entire swaths of their own people who are of a different type of Islam or another religion all together? What are they defending when they saw away limbs from children while they are still alive just because someone in their village shot at a single one of the foreign Islamic fighters who was uninvited to begin with and was enforcing laws no one wanted imposed on them? What is defended when they cut off the breasts of women they brutally rape because their brothers or fathers support a different supreme leader or sect of Islam than themselves?

I really dont know what to tell people like you except "please start taking some meds"....

a reply to: tadaman

What are they defending…

Their countries. All of them.

From warmongers like… well, like you.

'Don't even play like you are the savior and big humanitarian over there.

The worst destruction is wrought by the West. Bombocracy much?

a reply to: intrptr

Well, tell that to their own people they are killing by the thousands while you justify the brutality of tyrants who are vying for power by establishing an empire founded on intolerance and conquest.

You compare dropping bombs on selected militant targets where sadly, collateral lives are lost, by a standing army with oversight from its own people,its government and international organizations as well as other nations, to a systematic door to door gestapo style ethnic cleansing by armed thugs where all living things are tortured and killed?

WTH is wrong with that picture to you?

I am not the humanitarian. Apparently neither are you. You would crap on every innocent life lost just to spite the west you probably live in.
LEAVE already.

a reply to: tadaman

You compare dropping bombs on selected militant targets…

You're making that "comparison", not me.

I know whats worse. No matter how you cage it, invading other countries (and killing lots of people) is against International Law and more importantly, against the laws of this country.

"Real" Americans don't get behind that.

a reply to: intrptr

REAL humans dont bat an eye at the mass murder and torture of an entire region because organized criminals have a freaking flag.

YOU know whats worse. Sure. Try being brutally raped and then having your children sawed into pieces in front of your family. Sure. A US soldier is so much worse than that....

EDIT TO ADD:
Its also illegal to rape, torture and kill in mass....so where is your high morality there? I would love for the rest of the world to get on the "kill all genocidal assholes" band wagon and take some pressure off the US, but until then I am happy its being done at all.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport
I didnt know WE were fighting there.....I thought that was infighting between foreign radical Islamic fighters trying to establish a Caliphate also fighting the sovereign government of the territory.....Yes those deaths are OUR fault. Thats exactly the sort of people to be reasonable with...because the whole Syrian situation isnt indicative of the sort of people you defend...no, its all attributed to a fundamental flaw with OUR ethos...right.

What kind of logic are you using to bring home your ad hominem argument? I never said it is "our" fault, I merely pointed out that "we" _also_ contributed to the death toll on the opposite tab.
I also never said "our" ethos is flawed, because, given our history and development, it isn't - however, I have to consider also, based on their history and development, that "theirs" isn't either. The point is that the ethos on the one and the other side don't match, the values, the religious beliefs, the basics of life, all of that is different and in some parts contradictionary to each other. We can now simply say "they are wrong" and they can simply say "we are wrong", we can blow their heads off and they can it with ours - but what exactly will this solve?

I dont think this exchange will be very productive if thats the level of cherry picking and gross intellectual dishonesty you will engage in. Support Murderers and Rapists. All you.

Are you now feeling better?

I am sure our European descendants will thank you for turning a blind eye to the house we allowed to be built at their door step....While you are watching Bill Maher on the flat screen and sipping on some excellent wine just remember that attitudes like yours brought upon the west the awfulness of the dark ages due to the fall of Rome.

It must be fun profiling people.
Unfortunately, I do not own a TV, gave that up many years ago - and I hate wine. And I don't need any Bill Maher person since I am well able to make and state my opinion on my own.
The last time, I wanted to make up my mind about an issue was, btw, when I decided to live (not work, not stay as a tourist) in an islamic state for some years to find out whether or not it was true what was said about the people and the religion and to understand the main issues. And it didn't make a believer.
In fact, I am an avid fighter against islamization of Europe (since you brought up this continent), because the enemy is not standing at the borders, it is within already - but that is completely different discussion.

Rome, which fell out of complacency, appeasement, and weakness towards real threats to the civilized world. The fall of Rome, that sent all those soft and tender "civilized" people into the meat grinder of the barbarian hordes and turned THEM into animals once again. That is the legacy for our future generations if left up to people like you. Savage Survival.

And this is where you are wrong - again. I am not appeasing anything, what I support is negotiations with clear words, definite goals and borders _AND_ the backbone (as in will and power) to stand up when the treaty is being violated, much like when you educate a child. This is one of the things arabic (and other) people laugh about: The west is busy drawing red lines and when they are crossed, they throw fluffy balls - this is not what works with their mindsets. But what also not works is the policeman attitude "we know what is good for you and you do it or we bomb you away".

a reply to: carport

Indeed, the confirmed deaths caused by the IS is just a fraction of the number of people that have died in the civil wars of Iraq and Syria plus by the hands of western forces.

You said that. I responded. Deal with it. Its not true.

I hope you enjoyed writing that long ass post. Because you are all for ISIS having their own state, giving them a free pass to do so which ignores EVERYTHING they are actually about and have done, while crapping on the west you probably live in for its involvement in for lesser evils you nit pick about,....I will not even read it. Know that.

Its just more crap from someone who is probably insane that I dont have to listen to. I am sure everything you say can be attributed to yourself as well.

Keep defending ISIS you freaking loon.

I wont hope that karma gets them. I will pray to the devil himself if necessary so that they get some. I will do the same for their friends as well.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: intrptr
Well, tell that to their own people they are killing by the thousands while you justify the brutality of tyrants who are vying for power by establishing an empire founded on intolerance and conquest.

Just a correction here: They aren't. They fight against their declared and justified (in their way of thinking) enemies. In the very same way the catholics fought the protestants, although both were christians, in the religious war in Europe, one faction of muslims is here fighting against the other - and all of them against those who are no muslims (the yesids for example are considered by them satan worshipers).
And there is one other thing that has to be considered - factions can change very fast in this struggle. What is today your ally, can be tomorrow your enemy and the next day your ally again. It can happen that two factions fight for eradication of the other, but as soon as a thrid party shows up, they unite against it until it is driven out.

This is the main reason why I advocate not to take sides, not in the current moment, at least. There are fights that have to play out, have to be decided, if necessary even ultimately. If you stop and seize the fight, it will only continue to burn under the ground until it surfaces again. The alternative is a strong occupation force for, let's say 50 years (that is what it took in Germany). Is your humanity prepared to pay for that - and save people there while they are dieing from deteriorating circumstances in your homeland, because the needed money flows to the occupation land?
Just waging war for some months didn't work - not in Afghanistan, not in Libya, not in Iraq ... and not in any other country for that matter. So it is either all in or all out, and I, personally, prefer all out.

a reply to: carport

Please put more effort into your posts telling us how noble ISIS is and how deserving they are of their own state. Please continue. I PROMISE I will dignify your posts with even just a quick glance.

So, my vote goes for: Let them have their state, but make it clear and without a doubt that this is all they will get (Iraq will, no matter the outcome, falter into 2 or 3 states anyway and Syria as well), any further attempt will result in a total and utter destroy.

You are insane! I refuse to let you touch my mind. So you say let them have their state, but if they do EXACTLY what they are doing now and openly plan to do in the future that you will support a response form us DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING WE ARE DOING NOW!??!?

You are a nutter.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport

Indeed, the confirmed deaths caused by the IS is just a fraction of the number of people that have died in the civil wars of Iraq and Syria plus by the hands of western forces.

You said that. I responded. Deal with it. Its not true.

It is you, who failed to prove your point - rhetoric won't help. But I give you chance anyway - show me YOUR numbers.

(...long and elaborete ad hominem arguments without any tangible arguments on the matter...)

Like I wrote before: I hope you are feeling better now, we might as well return to discussion on topic.

a reply to: carport

Look up to my post above yours. I wont even read that short post trying to bicker over "proving a point or something".

You are insane.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport

Look up to my post above yours. I wont even read that short post trying to bicker over "proving a point or something".

You are insane.

Yeah, that is the attitude dicsussions are made of, isn't it?

However, being new here, I have first to discover who of the members post ad hominem and who are interested in exchanging arguments, even provocative. No biggie, been there with the BBS and usenet before.

a reply to: carport

That I did read. Dont ask. You seem to be new to the internet as well.

Defending people who openly plan on hurting my people, kill their own people in the thousands, live by an ethos of might makes right, will not bring out butterflies. Maybe you should be on a forum supporting open terrorism.

Good luck with that. Psycho.

Your argument was flawed. ISIS killed as many people as they did and saying that civil war between a slightly different faction than them in a single country at war because of people LIKE THEM or even the aggression of western forces elsewhere as somehow being justification for it all or the actual source of blame isnt discussion. Its fantasy.

You need to look at what the hell you think you know so much about Mr. token liberal. You just crapped on everyone these sociopaths killed and cheered them on from your high morality.

This was made for you:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDIT TO ADD:
I see you posted below this. I will not read it either. Your logic is like a used condom full of weapons grade uranium. Key word.

Please find a forum where open terrorism is supported. Leave ATS and every other place you like to propagate the ideas of murderers and rapists to the civilized world. Most people are not as insane as you and will not welcome you. Maybe you are just a harmless crazy. You sound like a dangerous loon to me though.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport

Please put more effort into your posts telling us how noble ISIS is and how deserving they are of their own state. Please continue. I PROMISE I will dignify your posts with even just a quick glance.

So, my vote goes for: Let them have their state, but make it clear and without a doubt that this is all they will get (Iraq will, no matter the outcome, falter into 2 or 3 states anyway and Syria as well), any further attempt will result in a total and utter destroy.

You are insane! I refuse to let you touch my mind. So you say let them have their state, but if they do EXACTLY what they are doing now and openly plan to do in the future that you will support a response form us DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING WE ARE DOING NOW!??!?

You are a nutter.

Yes, this is exactly the way to address this mindset, believe it or not (and not only in this region we talk about). You remember that some thinkers, today and in the past have claimed that arabics "need a strong hand" to govern them? I disagree with that in detail, but for the general idea, this is why these claims are made.
You need to understand that there is a complete different way of thinking and of reasoning (of values, of virtues, and so on...), dealing with enemy when you try to think like him is easier than to ram your head on the enemies door.