Give ISIS their state...

a reply to: zatara

Can't they just go back home to their country of origin and live their lives? I mean were they involuntarily dumped where they are and lost, or are they trying to take over and start a coup? At least lets be honest about it...plus Monday is Christopher Columbus Day and supposedly a National Holiday so who's to say.

I want my own state, too. Nah, just kiddin' I'm really not that greedy.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Zcustosmorum
Tens of Thousands have died in the last year because of IS...

I am sure, you are able to give a source for that.
Indeed, the confirmed deaths caused by the IS is just a fraction of the number of people that have died in the civil wars of Iraq and Syria plus by the hands of western forces.
And the Kurds are the good guys? That is why they threaten to resume the fight against Turkey if Turkey does not help them (the Kurdish-Turkish fight did cost a mere 30,000 lifes in the past years)? The Turks maybe are the good ones - which is why they refuse to take part in operations unless the Syrian leader Assad is being by them removed as well? The Iraqis maybe, whose now-Shiit dominated armed forces killed thousands of Sunnis (which lead ultimately to the armed resistance against them)?

But, maybe it is easier to look in the history to find good and bad ones? You won't find them, not in this region which is an incubator for religious beliefs of many kinds (amongst others Christians, Muslims, Jews) in the past 3000 and more years and the only time when they didn't fight against each other to ultimately proof who has the biggest (ehem ... god ... of course) was when they were supressed by one or the other power?

Let me quote my words from another thread:

Demonizing one side only makes the sides easier to take and helps to find support for a cause - let us not demonize one side but look at the whole picture, and the whole picture is a bloody one. By us fueling the fights, especially by supporting one side here, then another side some months later, and so on, we let the fire keep burning. The day before Yesterday, it was Al Kaida, yesterday it was the Taliban, today it is IS, who is it tomorrow? And, trust me, we will see even more cruel pictures (what about impaled people, for example, you will read about those in the Hadiths as well).

You know the clip where the spectators of a tennis match are shown and you hear "pong" and all heads go left and they say "oooh", then "pong and all heads go right and "oooh"?
That is us, but instead of "pong", we hear "al kaida", "ISIS", "Assad", "Chorasan". To whose advantage?

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: zatara
Nobody should ever listen to idiots that shout the name of God and then kill people thinking they are doing him a favor.

I couldn't agree more - but what is about the people shouting "in God we trust" and then drop bombs? Is that a lot more intelligent? Fundamentally speaking?

originally posted by: jaxnmarko
a reply to: zatara

If it continues and becomes a "state" that fails, it shows the failure of their way of thinking.

Yes, but ... the IS _is_ a state already, they have a working administration, they care for food, for energy and weeded out the former corruption:
www.reuters.com...

In this regard, there is a second, a different, face to the letters IS as well, not just the army (or militants or whatever one would call them), there is not only bloodthirst (which is, in many cases, orchestrated for the public in certain western countries to pke those, from above anyway), not only fighting and there are not only young males driving trucks with kalashnikovs in their hands.

The IS, in their current actions, appears to me more like a family who occupied a house and starts to clean it out to make it comfortable for them - meaning they are cleaning the area from all people who do not share their goals and beliefs (unless they pay a special tax, then they can stay). This, is, BTW, exactly the same way the founder of Islam and his followers were using and exactly the same way that todays Saudi-Arabia was using to form their "states" once (and quite a few other states in the history of mankind as well, not to forget, and some only very few years ago, think Sudan, think Yugoslavia follow states, think Ruanda).

In this regard, IS is, indeed, engaged in nation building - the problem is just that WE do not accept this kind or this way of nation building and this, foremost, because they dare us, the western powers, because they want to show us that it is not our way of thinking and not our way of doing things, not our understanding of humanity which is accepted by everyone and everywhere.

And even if the west achieves it to destroy the IS today - there will be another attempt for a state tomorrow and another the day after. The Jack is out of the box now and put him back again, it will cost us uncountable amounts of money and uncountable amounts of lifes - lifes and money that could be invested somewhere else with more effect and maybe even better results. Negotiations with a militia, with partisans, with rebel soldiers, won't do any good, they have not much to loose - but negotiations with a state will do better, because a state DOES have something to loose (and, in military terms, can be fought much better).

So, my vote goes for: Let them have their state, but make it clear and without a doubt that this is all they will get (Iraq will, no matter the outcome, falter into 2 or 3 states anyway and Syria as well), any further attempt will result in a total and utter destroy.

a reply to: carport

The deaths by ISIS are a fraction of those deaths in Iraq or elsewhere? Care to give a source to that?

The reality is that the western forces deployed have at least SOME oversight and answer to the public that they come from as well as the government that sent them. ISIS has NO OVERSIGHT,answers to no one, is killing at an exponential rate and will surpass the numbers of deaths from the standing army that we had in under a decade by many millions at the rate they are going at now.

KILLING entire villages and entire populations in a country or several countries in a region based on religious observations or political affiliations is not even comparable to dropping bombs on selected targets where collateral deaths occur. Going door to door and killing ALL LIVING THINGS is VERY different....even if you refuse to make that distinction...the rest of the world sees that.

EDIT TO ADD:
Someone mentioned earlier that you cant win an ideological war with bombs. They are right. There is no reasoning with unreasonable men though. Thats why I say we should annihilate them. I dont want the west to win an ideological war by having the best argument for why radical religious ideologies are a bad idea. I want anyone willing to kill all those that aren't talking anything but perpetual violence or complete subjugation. Only those on the extreme left in the west think this is an ideological war. Its all they know.

This is simply a war.

Either we fight now with an advantage (since we all know this will never end)...or future generations fight with a disadvantage because we were too weak to get our precious superior morality stained by what is necessary for survival.

How do you people think that an empire founded in the mass murder of its opponents will evolve towards its neighbors? How did the last Radical Islamic Caliphate turn out for its neighbors? (I ask since everyone is a history expert here apparently...LOL).....

How has Turkey been to the Greeks? That is what happens when you appease murderous tyrants who rule by violence and fear. They become your unwelcome guests instead of just your hostile neighbors.

a reply to: intrptr

I'm not a kid and i save my hatred for scum and murderers

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: carport

The deaths by ISIS are a fraction of those deaths in Iraq or elsewhere? Care to give a source to that?

Yes, see for example here (deaths in Iraq since 2003 more than 100,000)):
en.wikipedia.org...
and here, broken down by year:
en.wikipedia.org...
(please note also the death rates even in Kurdish and Shia territories, the ISIS predecessors were not active in those regions)

Syria death toll in the past 3 years were 160,000:
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Now, when it comes to the death toll _caused_ by the IS, it is very difficult to find numbers. The UN said that in the first 6 months of 2014, the civilian death toll in all of Iraq was 5,500 - but they do not differentiate between the various factions that are engage in the civil war there and they also do not differentiate between the time when the IS was IS (or ISIS) and when it was not, but an insurgency group like many others. But - even when we cosnider that all of those 5500 were caused by ISIS, it is still only a fraction of the people killed in Syria in the past 3 years alone (where IS was not engaged prior to June) and also only a fraction of the death toll in Iraq in the past 5 or 10 years.

These numbers show that the propaganda completely blows off the real circumstances and make people believe that a certain group is a lot worse than others (or other factions of the civil wars) - but it is not.
The UN estimates Iraq

KILLING entire villages and entire populations in a country or several countries in a region based on religious observations or political affiliations is not even comparable to dropping bombs on selected targets where collateral deaths occur. Going door to door and killing ALL LIVING THINGS is VERY different....even if you refuse to make that distinction...the rest of the world sees that.

How come they see it? When there is nothing to be seen, but only reports to be heard? Your guess about what really happens is really as good as mine (I do not know which languages you speak, me, I follow english, french, german, arabic and kurdish reports and still do not get the whole picture...), however, there have been reports that numbers reported in western media are highly overexaggerated, for example the number of people in Sindhan mountains, or, as the latest example, the number of people who have fled to Turkey from Ain-al-Arab (aka Kobane) or who are still in the city (even Kurdish reports themselves say the numbers are much lower than what the media, based on numbers eg. from Turkey, states).

Someone mentioned earlier that you cant win an ideological war with bombs. They are right. There is no reasoning with unreasonable men though. Thats why I say we should annihilate them. I dont want the west to win an ideological war by having the best argument for why radical religious ideologies are a bad idea. I want anyone willing to kill all those that aren't talking anything but perpetual violence or complete subjugation. Only those on the extreme left in the west think this is an ideological war. Its all they know.
This is simply a war.

Although I agree mainly, it is a war of ideology, but not ours against theirs, but theirs against theirs. It is Shiites against Salafis, Sunnis against Shiits, both against Yesids and christians, Kurds against Turkish, both against Alawites, then communist ideology (kurdish) against all others, and so on and so on - the ones who are reasonable today, won't be tomorrow, and vice versa. Allies today can be enemies tomorrow (you probably did notice that even the "moderate" islamic factions, which are supposed to be supported by the west, burnt US flags recently, because they do not attack Assad along ISIS).
THIS is a war everyone against everyone, by all means, and the goal is to be the King of the Hill. Unfortunately, it has been this way there for centuries, even millennia, except the times when a strong power subjugated the other factions (eg. Iraq, the Ottoman Empire, France, UK, etc.). And from this reason there is nothing to win for us, the west, we only can loose, money, lifes, credibility - and we will loose big.

Again, my question: To whose advantages?

"Baghdad -- Militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)
have infiltrated one of Baghdad's outer suburbs, Abu Ghraib
which is only eight miles from "

so if isil liberate Abu Ghraib , what then??

a reply to: carport

I see you include Syria. Interesting.

I didnt know WE were fighting there.....I thought that was infighting between foreign radical Islamic fighters trying to establish a Caliphate also fighting the sovereign government of the territory.....Yes those deaths are OUR fault. Thats exactly the sort of people to be reasonable with...because the whole Syrian situation isnt indicative of the sort of people you defend...no, its all attributed to a fundamental flaw with OUR ethos...right.

I dont think this exchange will be very productive if thats the level of cherry picking and gross intellectual dishonesty you will engage in.

Support Murderers and Rapists. All you.

EDIT TO ADD:
I am sure our European descendants will thank you for turning a blind eye to the house we allowed to be built at their door step....While you are watching Bill Maher on the flat screen and sipping on some excellent wine just remember that attitudes like yours brought upon the west the awfulness of the dark ages due to the fall of Rome.

Rome, which fell out of complacency, appeasement, and weakness towards real threats to the civilized world. The fall of Rome, that sent all those soft and tender "civilized" people into the meat grinder of the barbarian hordes and turned THEM into animals once again. That is the legacy for our future generations if left up to people like you. Savage Survival.

Excuse me if I tune you out. We have heard that song before and we dont want to dance to it ever again.

If you give them a state the the Kurds get one too and the Alawites. They have the right to live how they want to live, then you build a wall and fence them in, IDF will provide the tech in exchange for oil

a reply to: queenofsheba

I want my own state, too. Nah, just kid din' I'm really not that greedy.

Lol, you are already a Queen. Queen of Sheba, right?

Problem is though, the west is trying to take theirs . All of it.

a reply to: JDmOKI

…i save my hatred for scum and murderers.

That makes you just like them.

a reply to: intrptr

That makes a lot of sense... I have a job that doesn't involve cutting heads off or shooting at people. I'm agnostic and i don't live in Syria or Iraq. I'm anti war and for sure anti genocide, how does that make me anything like ISIS

a reply to: JDmOKI

I didn't accuse you of "being like ISIS", whatever that means. I meant that hatred is the problem, you said you build it up. It doesn't matter who you are or direct it at, hatred just begets more hatred.

Now you say you are antiwar, I see this is a shape shifter conversation.

In all my years of internet, this OP is one of the worst thought out and oversimplified opinion pieces in history.

Whoever "ISIS" is, whether they are a conspiratorial shadow group made of provocateurs, or if they are genuinely a grassroots "Muslim" outfit, they need to be destroyed down to the last man.

OP makes no sense at all by admitting they are psychopaths, but then says they should have their own place in the world.

NO, they deserve death, every last one, with no mercy. I don't know who should do it, because frankly I'm tired of America being in the Middle East. But to say they deserve their own place in this world is completely illogical. They don't just have quirky or strange ideas, they are a death cult which takes ACTION on those ideas.

They are not welcome on Earth.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: andy06shake

I don't view ISIS as a mortal enemy to the US. I want that to be quite clear.

I am sorry, but militant/extremist (not "normal"!) Muslims by definition are enemies of the west, and they're also acting accordingly. It's FOR THEM that every non-believer is seen as an enemy, so yes, they are our enemies.

Also looking at the actions of ISIS, I have not the slightest impression that those are just some oppressed folks who want their own state and live in peace.

I doubt that ISIS has any *real* agenda or purpose BUT being a terror group which trains their members in bombing and killing, this is their entire "politics" and agenda. Coming back to the OP again, what a nightmare a ISIS state would be....it would make NAZI Germany look like Disneyland in comparison.

a reply to: intrptr

Then it will COST them until they stop.

a reply to: intrptr

Let innocents get massacred? no thanks. maybe we should just talk the religious zealots out?

PLEASE ISIS stop killing people. Answer - NO

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: intrptr

Let innocents get massacred? no thanks. maybe we should just talk the religious zealots out?

PLEASE ISIS stop killing people. Answer - NO

This may be extreme but one way to discourage terrorism is to do i t the russian way. They hold your family responsible for things you do. Tell them in no uncertain terms that if we find out your identity we will execute your sons first and go from there. For each act one member is killed. Eventually they will get the message.

Cruel? yes. sinking to their level? Yes. Effective? most likely for the most part all except the most hard core.