World Health Organization contradicts CDC, Confirms Ebola Can Spread Via Indirect Contact

CIDRIP announces that they believe the Ebola virus could go airborne:
www.zerohedge.com...

a reply to: bludragin

It has never being denied that Ebola could go airborne its just highly unlikely, it is better to focus on procedures that do work (when done correctly) than to speculate about what ifs.
Consider that no virus has ever being known to dramatically change its transmission method. For example HIV is a virus that transmits through the same methods that Ebola does since HIV was discovered it has infected literally hundreds of millions of people yet it has never mutated to transfer through the air. Keep in mind HIV mutates at an incredibly rapid rate, ive heard that it is able to mutate to form drug resistance within 1 day of exposure to drug, which is why it requires a cocktail of drugs that must continually change in order to keep it in check.
Based on all clinical, epidemiological, biological and scientific knowledge gathered over decades of study why do you think Ebola is somehow different from other viruses? The reality is that it is a nasty piece of work but these types of viruses exist, for whatever reason Ebola catches the public attention however viruses like this are constantly out there doing damage. I am constantly surprised each morning when we go through new cases at work to hear the weirdly exotic and horrible infections people get from all over the world however from a clinical point of view the only thing unique about Ebola is its ability to instill fear.
Yes it could mutate to go airborne and that would be terrible, remember though that a virus is a life form it wants 2 things firstly to survive secondly to pass on its genetics for another generation. When Ebola kills a person without transmitting it has failed its purpose in life. Rather than spreading through the air it would be far better for Ebola to mutate and become dormant for a longer period of time or to become infectious while asymptomatic, both of which outcomes would be equally terrible for us but all of this is speculation about 'what if' and its not helpful for dealing with what happening now.

Edit: I only briefly read the article because its clearly conflating the issue of airborne and aerosol.
"We believe there is scientific and epidemiological evidence that Ebola virus has the potential to be transmitted via infectious aerosol particles both near and at a distance from infected patients, which means that healthcare workers should be wearing respirators, not facemasks."
aerosol particle does not equal airborne, this is a separate type of transmission. And guideline do take that into consideration, at least here in Australia we are to avoid all aerosol generating procedures and if doing them wear appropriate PPE. This i personally believe is the reason for the transmission that has occurred at Dallas with the nurse, my understanding is that original patient was receiving intubation and dialysis both of which are AGPs and could have certainly caused transmission if people weren't wearing correct PPE.

a reply to: D4rcyJones

I posted this last night. I'd like to know your thoughts on my wish to see Frieden replaced. I am reading your last reply over coffee and will respond soon. Go here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: D4rcyJones

Appreciate this detailed and thoughtful reply. I concur with much of what you say, but not all. This may be due to ignorance on my part. I am always open to learning. Was it the case that hundreds of doctors and nurses and other healthcare workers contracted AIDS while treating HIV patients in Africa?

a reply to: bludragin
I suspect 10s of thousands were infected, needle stick injuries are a common occurrence. Today we luckily have post exposure prophylaxis and this is no longer a huge problem but it certainly took time to ensure procedures around taking blood and testing were done correctly especially in hospitals that werent used to it..
Ive replied on your other thread re Frieden

originally posted by: D4rcyJones
a reply to: bludragin
I suspect 10s of thousands were infected, needle stick injuries are a common occurrence. Today we luckily have post exposure prophylaxis and this is no longer a huge problem but it certainly took time to ensure procedures around taking blood and testing were done correctly especially in hospitals that werent used to it..
Ive replied on your other thread re Frieden

Thanks, will check it out.

a reply to: D4rcyJones

Your reply was very good, but I think it is off-center in a couple areas.

Comparing ebola to HIV is fine but it is a big leap to say that since HIV didn't go airborne ebola wont either. There are so many factors that are involved in a virus becoming truly airborne that to compare them is very difficult.

In its purest simplest terms a virus is neither alive nor dead. It is simply a protein string. Not all proteins behave the same. How long one can 'survive', that is, exist and maintain its integrity outside a host, depends a lot on the conditions of the environment and the protein chain in question.

First it is important to acknowledge the difference between aerosolized and airborne. Droplets ejected in a sneeze or cough are aerosolized particles of moisture in which the virus may be present. These droplets vary in size and mass and some may indeed remain airborne for a lengthy period of time, depending on the environment. Although the virus has taken flight, it is not 'airborne' in the sense that it can freely travel from one host to another with no motive force behind it other then air currents.

Breathing does emit moisture. If you have ever breathed on a mirror and saw condensation you know this to be true. The virus could be contained in the moisture coming from the lungs, especially if it was a respiratory virus to begin with. In that sense, the virus could be said to be airborne. If the virus becomes severely infectious fewer particles of smaller mass would be required to sustain the same rate of infection. Similarly, the necessary proximity to the source to achieve infection would be greater. These are the key factors in a virus becoming airborne in the strictest sense of the word.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Yes agree with all that you have said.

I should have been more clear with the point i was making with HIV as you are right just because HIV hasn't turned airborne isn't by itself enough evidence to say that Ebola wont develop that ability. My point was more that that ll viruses have the ability to mutate and develop new functions, evolutionary speaking all life forms can do this, however based off what we know currently its not worth getting too concerned about (although it would be terrible if it ever happened). But if we are to allow ourselves to give in to fear then we should be consistent and living in a world worrying about Ebola or HIV going airborne isn't going to be in anyway constructive as we would all never leave the house.

Aerosol and airborne transmission has been highly confused in the media and these forums and its adding unnecessary anxiety. Yes if you get sneezed on by a person with Ebola then you have a right to be concerned, however sneezing isn't associated with Ebola and a person who is coughing up blood is more likely to be collapsed on an ED floor then travelling around in public.

To my understanding Ebola is not know to dwell in the upper respiratory tract where other virus that transmit through sneezing, coughing and breathing characteristically live. Perhaps you can shed more regarding this? But again id think that an infection of that stage isnt much concern to the public... the Dr and Nurses being asked to scrub up and treat such a patient would be hopefully be mindful of this and use appropriate PPE.

originally posted by: D4rcyJones
Take your logic and shove it... Petros312

Just seeing this now. Seriously? Forget logical thinking on the subject of Ebola being a threat as an airborne virus?

a reply to: D4rcyJones

The thing that has me concerned is that any body fluid can transmit the virus. Sweat is the one I worry about the most. And with a fever, there will be sweating. Anyone with sweaty hands that goes out in public, touching doors, handrails, money, anything, could be transmitting the virus to the unfortunate person who is the next to touch the same thing. That person opens a door, just that, then touches their face and could be infected. Think about how many times a day you touch around your eyes or nose or mouth without thinking about it.

Ebola is not a respiratory disease but it does dwell in bodily fluids, mainly blood. The lungs are saturated with blood. As the virus advances the host begins to hemorrhage internally. It is very possible that small amounts of blood are present in the lungs and could be aerosolized by coughing or sneezing. This phase would probably happen before the person is incapacitated. I would expect a certain degree of similarity so, barring outliers, there probably wont be much deviation from the normal advance of the disease. Meaning there is a fair likelihood that there are people walking free who could infect others with a poorly timed cough or sneeze.

What becomes the real issue IMO is when people who have been following every protocol and taking every precaution believe they are clear of the danger zone and find out the hard way they weren't. How long will the virus live on a doorknob? It may live an hour today and by next week it could live for days. My point is that every time the virus mutates to live a little longer the radius of infection increases. Would you feel comfortable going into a room an infected person was in a week ago? I would because I don't believe the virus lives that long outside the host at this time. Would I go into a room that was occupied by an infected person yesterday? Oh, hell no...

I just heard the exact opposite on NBC Nightly News. They had an 'expert' that said it could not live on surfaces & he said if had been sitting on that plane right next to the nurse his chance of getting it would be zero. That's a bold statement & I, for one, do not believe that is accurate at all.

I will listen to the WHO on this issue and not a word from the CDC or our media.

a reply to: Whisper67

Yesterday, and I don't have the exact quote, a guy from the CDC said something like, "If you are sitting next to an infected person on a bus or a plane you wont get infected. But that person should not be using public transportation because there is a chance of infecting other passengers..."

originally posted by: Whisper67
I just heard the exact opposite on NBC Nightly News. They had an 'expert' that said it could not live on surfaces & he said if had been sitting on that plane right next to the nurse his chance of getting it would be zero. That's a bold statement & I, for one, do not believe that is accurate at all.

I will listen to the WHO on this issue and not a word from the CDC or our media.

This is incomprehensible to me, and completely contradicts statements from WHO and CIDRIP. Doesn't the now infamous Dr Nancy "I need my favorite pizza" Snyderman work for NBC?

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Whisper67

Yesterday, and I don't have the exact quote, a guy from the CDC said something like, "If you are sitting next to an infected person on a bus or a plane you wont get infected. But that person should not be using public transportation because there is a chance of infecting other passengers..."

This is seriously sounding to me like Big Brother New Speak. This, truly, is becoming preposterously insane. And these are the people advising Obama? God/dess help us all...

[quoteinappropriately posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: D4rcyJones

The thing that has me concerned is that any body fluid can transmit the virus. Sweat is the one I worry about the most. And with a fever, there will be sweating. Anyone with sweaty hands that goes out in public, touching doors, handrails, money, anything, could be transmitting the virus to the unfortunate person who is the next to touch the same thing. That person opens a door, just that, then touches their face and could be infected. Think about how many times a day you touch around your eyes or nose or mouth without thinking about it.

Ebola is not a respiratory disease but it does dwell in bodily fluids, mainly blood. The lungs are saturated with blood. As the virus advances the host begins to hemorrhage internally. It is very possible that small amounts of blood are present in the lungs and could be aerosolized by coughing or sneezing. This phase would probably happen before the person is incapacitated. I would expect a certain degree of similarity so, barring outliers, there probably wont be much deviation from the normal advance of the disease. Meaning there is a fair likelihood that there are people walking free who could infect others with a poorly timed cough or sneeze.

What becomes the real issue IMO is when people who have been following every protocol and taking every precaution believe they are clear of the danger zone and find out the hard way they weren't. How long will the virus live on a doorknob? It may live an hour today and by next week it could live for days. My point is that every time the virus mutates to live a little longer the radius of infection increases. Would you feel comfortable going into a room an infected person was in a week ago? I would because I don't believe the virus lives that long outside the host at this time. Would I go into a room that was occupied by an infected person yesterday? Oh, hell no...




I am grateful for your contributions to this discussion. It has been my understanding for some time, and, my deep concern, that the virus can be passed via sweat-laden surfaces, which is why I've been tapping my fingers, waiting impatiently for the unions of our most vulnerable citizens (hospital, airline, hotel, restaurant, transportation workers, etc) to strike if their risks are not acknowledged and appropriately addressed. Obama believing the BS advice he is getting from CDC is rather horrifying. How many people must get Ebola in this country before Frieden can be charged with criminal negligence?

a reply to: bludragin

This week we are doing walk throughs at a few hosptials to see how their EDs respond. WE are looking primarily at things such as how many people would have contact with a potential ebola patient in the time from when they walk in until the time we get them transferred to our hemorrhagic fever and into isolation.
Sweat is definitely an issue that we have identified however its not so much a major concern we have for public but it does create a logistical nightmare for the ED. If youre not familiar with a typical ED they are generally quite small and one of the problems we have is that most of our hospitals only have one triage room. After someone has been assessed in that room we have to do a full decontamination meaning that the ED is out of business for potentially a few hours -you can see why this is a problem.
Also things like blood pressure and heart rate monitor do we clean them or throw them out and buy new ones, we are currently trying to get disposable thermometers but this is surprisingly hard because of levels of government involved :s
I will let you know how it goes and what risks and solutions we identify

a reply to: Vroomfondel
Id be i the same boat as you i think. A week ago id have no problem.. yesterday id have to see a full log of cleaning procedure and have ppe donning and doffing with someone from infection control present.

a reply to: D4rcyJones

This "real and up close" experience you are having and sharing with us here gives me a better sense of the kinds of crazy challenges hospitals are facing in their attempts to "prepare" for Ebola. I would like very much to hear more details as time goes on - whatever seems pertinent that you feel comfortable sharing. I would think that many here at ATS would be curious. Will you be doing your own OP on this at some point?

a reply to: bludragin

Glad i can provide information, i guess the main thing to keep in mind with what im saying is that th health system i work in is probably quite different from the US so our logistical problems might not be the same although id imagine there is a lot of similarities.
Our system works like this: we have hospitals at the local level -> then a health district that covers about 4 or 5 hospitals (this is the level that i work at) -> then there is state health network which is part of state government -> finally national health which runs as a department of federal government. To give you an example of how difficult it is in preparing each hospital is free to make its own decisions about how to handle and treat ebola but they look to us as district public health for advice however we have no authority to actually enforce any particular approach, for that we have to ask state and national for legislative approval (which is a nightmare) and in most cases they will leave it up to the hospitals to call their own shots (this i think is probably the error that caused the Dallas incident, too many people making different decisions). When it comes to situation like transferring a patient from a generic hospital to our designated hospital we then need to bring in ambulance service which is an entire separate arm of state and national health so again we have to engage the bureaucratic beast that is government. This is further complicated in that district ambulance borders dont line up with district health borders (dont ask me why i literally face palmed myself when i found this out, prtobably due to some state politician decideing they needed to leave their mark on something) so when it comes to transfer to our designated hospital from say our busiest ED which is only a 10min ambulance ride we have to involve 2 hospitals, 2 health districts, 2 ambulance districts, state and national health departments and state ambulance department. This process we are estimating to take at least 2 hour at minimum if the planets align and everything goes perfect (in reality it will be a lot longer) in order to prep the patient, range a specific ambulance that is designed for this type of transfer (which could be anywhere in the sate and there is only i think 5 of them), have ambulance staff pick up appropriate PPE (because they dont always carry them in the ambulance), have the receiving hospital prepped and waiting, arrange police escort (depending on situation), provide briefs to directors of public health, hospitals and ambulances and state politicians so that they can all be composed for their press conferences.. once these wheels are all set in motion it is a massive undertaking and people are very hesitant to be the person to make that call.. We had a case show up in an ED they locked the doors didnt let anyone out for over an hour, it took them 45mins to assess the person before it became clear that there was very little chance of ebola, they were still referred for testing (came back all negative) but testing involves a whole lot more jurisdictions and departments getting involved. Keep in mind this is a major metropolitan city, if a cases pops up out in a rural or semi remote area then its basically make it up as we go for the time being... the federal health department has purchased iso-pods for an air evac but currently our planes cant have them installed, a private company has being arranged to try and fit the pods into their planes but then we have planes on standby costing 10s of thousands of dollars each day that cant be used for anything else.
I will consider putting all my experiences into a post but not yet... we recently had some doctors suspended because they bad mouthed the governments handling of this which has made me cautious of what to say. For the time being happy to just take questions and jump in where i feel i have something to contribute. Feel free to ask anything specific and ill do my best.

a reply to: D4rcyJones

Wow, talk about having to jump through beauracratic hoops! Yikes!! Well, please keep this thread in mind when you have more that you wish to share. I find your commentary to be insightful and invaluable in regard to the OP topic at hand.