The problem with America today.

originally posted by: MrSpad
The Patriot Act is nothing compared to the days of Sedition Laws, rounding up people in camps because of their former nationality, The House Committee on Un-American Activities etc. Amercian history is filled with these sorts of things. These things come and go.

Oh well. That makes it all ok then

Soft despotism gives people the illusion that they are in control, when in fact they have very little influence over their government. Soft despotism breeds fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the general populace. Alexis de Tocqueville observed that this trend was avoided in America only by the "habits of the heart" of its 19th-century populace.

en.wikipedia.org...

Left, right, it doesn't matter what boot is on your throat.

I agree with you on everything but the historical reference to Germany in 1938. Unlike the US, Germany had only "invaded" Sudeten Austria (ethnic German area), Czechoslovakia (new country created in the wake of WW1 with a large German population openly oppressed by government run by Slavs and Poles) and the Rhineland (traditionally German territory taken by France after WW1 as a buffer zone).
I put invaded in quotes as I question whether it is the right word for re-uniting people with their own countrymen. Even the start of WW2 was over parts of Germany taken by the Allies and given to Poland after WW1, economically and physically isolating them deep within Poland (the Danzig corridor), a country which would make no concessions to Germany nor sit down to negotiate.
France was conceited and Britain was naïve. Both deserve a piece of the blame for why a Second World War ever happened.

The evils committed by our own country are just as bad as those done by anyone. Murder is murder whether it comes by starvation, gas chamber or hellfire missile. What frightens me is our technological capacity has increased our ability for surveillance and destruction 10,000x from what anyone could do 80 years ago. Our government has pushed far beyond the boundaries of acting in an ethical, responsible and Constitutionally-mandated manner. Rather than see how scary things truly are most would prefer to cling to the belief we're still the good guys who go the rescue of other Nations in trouble. If we even knew the half of it.

originally posted by: MrSpad
The Patriot Act is nothing compared to the days of Sedition Laws, rounding up people in camps because of their former nationality, The House Committee on Un-American Activities etc. Amercian history is filled with these sorts of things. These things come and go.

You are correct and I agree with everything you said except for the last part. These things won't be "going" in my opinion and it's largely because of technology. They have literally gone too far to turn back and I don't think that any in the government one either side of the isle wants to. I think they are all interested in and perfectly happy marching on into a dystopian society.

originally posted by: Helious
Greetings ATS,

Anyone who has followed my comments and threads probably thinks that I identify as Republican and this could not be further from the truth. I despise Republicans for a multitude of issues and disagree with the large majority of what the "mainstream" Republicans push as their primary agenda. I want to establish this as a foreshadow because I don't want anyone to think I am embarking on a liberal witch hunt with this thread.

An argument can be made that America was in the clutches of crony corporatism and corrupt government as early as the implementation of the federal reserve act and you would certainly be right in saying so. With that said, a certain amount of "restraint" has traditionally been employed by the government and the corporate lobbyists that control it to not upset the general population too much in too little of any stretch of time as to make a big fuss over the loss of personal freedoms to bolster bigger profits for those "in charge".

Fast forward to 9/11/2001, George W. Bush implemented the most sinister law ever devised in the history of the United States. The Patriot Act, while advertised to fight "terrorism" would be used in the months and years that followed it's implementation to endeavor into a scope well beyond the outline that was defined to the citizens of the United States. This law, would be, is now and continues to be the law which allows the NSA to illegally collect massive amounts of raw data on U.S. citizens.

George W. Bush was a traitor to this country and should be tried as such under a court of law. The Constitution and the Supreme Court both uphold the concept and the legality that when a law is made that is unconstitutional it is null and void, not at the time of challenge but at inception. The Patriot Act, is unlawful and illegitimate in it's wording, it's scope and as we can all see.... Most certainly it's practice.

What does this mean for Obama? Well, President Obama promised that his administration was going to be the most "transparent" in history. A bold claim almost no president could conform to but that claim by itself gave many hope after such a horrible tyrant like Bush had left office. The problems that come after that are more than troubling, they become downright terrifying and here is why.......

The democratic party is supposed to be focused on personal freedom and liberty and yet they historically now run the most lawless executive (federal branch) of government in the history of the country. The head of the DoJ and the head of the IRS have BOTH been found in contempt of Congress with absolutely no repercussions. The president of the United States claims executive privilege to shield the treasonous actions of his administration with the executive branch and refuses to perform his Constitutional duty to faithfully execute laws.

The current American government funds radical Islamic terrorists in the form the of the Muslim Brotherhood and the "Moderate Syrian Rebels" (AKA ISIS, ISIL), they rage war with American weapons of war that were GIVEN to them by American government and would then rob you of personal liberty in the name of keeping you safe from the same people they have in the past and currently support and arm.

Our country in the short period of two decades has succeeded in a total militarization of the police force, through the absolute ridiculous notion that we needed a Department of Homeland Security. They exist for one reason and that reason is absolute control of the population inside of American borders and for nothing else. The DHS, NSA, ATF, NSA, FBI, CIA, BLM, IRS, DOA, FDA, DHS are not in place to catch terrorists because the simple fact is, there are none in the U.S. They are in place along with all local and federal law enforcement to enforce domestic policy from the top down.

If you still believe you live in "America" you are sadly mistaken. What you as an American live in now is exactly what the Germans lived in about 2-3 years before the rise of the Nazi party. Before you chastise me about Nazi references, I would ask you to think very hard on the state of affairs in country currently.

Do we invade, destroy and conquer other countries because of political and financial interests? Do we carry out raids that have nothing to do with integral security of our own sovereign nation that kill hundreds to thousands of innocent people every day? Do we spy on, encroach on and proactively degrade the personal freedoms of our own citizens within our own borders? Do we have constant infighting between branches of government because almost all of what we do as a matter of foreign policy is illegal and immoral so it must be kept secret in the interest of "national security"?

Many people in this administration should be in jail, many people in that last administration should be in jail. Never mind that they have sold our prisons out to private companies so there is an incentive to send citizens there, never mind that police in many states can now seize any and all of your assets without due process and never mind if you're a Democrat or Republican.

Our government has gone rogue, it is lawless in the very definition and spirit of the word and is enacting laws and policies to make sure that you and I can't do anything about it. It's happening now and now is the time to take notice. You must understand that America was not ever meant to be like this, to act in this way. The founders went through great lengths to ensure it could not but they never planned on a complacent society such as we have today. The paper means nothing if those with conscious will not stand up and defend it's merit.

And the reason someone with these views will NOT become POTUS - no money in it for all those big boys.

The problem with America is that the Govt has been rouge for much longer than most people notice (I'd honestly say since the Civil War aka the last time people stood up for themselves). Ask yourself why there is a re-written narrative for the Civil War that claims slavery as the cause? If it was well known that it was over FEDERALISM and that the separatists gave a very good account of themselves despite every card in the deck being against them, it would be a scarier world for those keeping us in check.

Another problem is that the average American is too willingly ignorant of global issues to make an intelligent interpretation of the police state that is already here. The fact that we are bombing the very force we created (to overthrow a legitimate regime btw) not even 4 years ago is proof of this. The people are so disconnected from reality that all you have to do is show some white guys getting "beheaded" in a ridiculously fake set of videos to get the PATRIOTS (the most ignorant of the bunch) riled up.

originally posted by: Helious

originally posted by: MrSpad
The Patriot Act is nothing compared to the days of Sedition Laws, rounding up people in camps because of their former nationality, The House Committee on Un-American Activities etc. Amercian history is filled with these sorts of things. These things come and go.

You are correct and I agree with everything you said except for the last part. These things won't be "going" in my opinion and it's largely because of technology. They have literally gone too far to turn back and I don't think that any in the government one either side of the isle wants to. I think they are all interested in and perfectly happy marching on into a dystopian society.

First, great thread topic, and excellent information in your OP. I also fear we have allowed the government to go way too far, and there is no way they will allow a return to pre 9/11 America. As I speak to fellow American's, I am appalled to see how clueless some are. Before our fellow citizen's can join together and rise up to regain all we've lost, it's going to take a lot education. Too many are complacent, and could care less, until it's too late.

I applaud your idea of focusing on one problem, and pray solutions can be found that all agree with.

Thank you again.

originally posted by: Helious
-- snip --
Our government has gone rogue, it is lawless in the very definition and spirit of the word and is enacting laws and policies to make sure that you and I can't do anything about it. It's happening now and now is the time to take notice. You must understand that America was not ever meant to be like this, to act in this way. The founders went through great lengths to ensure it could not but they never planned on a complacent society such as we have today. The paper means nothing if those with conscious will not stand up and defend it's merit.

S&F!

Nice job of putting a coherent listing of the cogent issues we all face at this very minute. I'm in agreement with your comparison, also. We haven't yet reached the point where supporters are going to put pen to paper and openly agree with you, but I'm afraid the day will be soon.

I graduated high school in 1970 and spent my share of time in the office. They were familiar with the game and, when I tweaked the nose of Authority, I did have to make an appearance, but everyone would be laughing by the time I left.

It was only through an accidental skimming of an article related to modern surveillance that I kept from making a big mistake. A while back I bought some copper screen with the intention of using an old ATX power supply to try to recover the gold from the multitude of cards and devices I have in storage. What I had thought of doing after seeing all the articles about man-in-the-middle cell towers was making a little Faraday cage and closing in my cell phone next we had to make a fairly long trip, NOT cool... They can tell when you power down your phone and remove the battery. You're talking a whole different ball of wax when your phone winks out in one spot and then reappears 110 miles away. "I was just kidding around!" may not fly any more.

There's a lot of folks out there that are fat, happy and willfully ignorant. It's like how the kids at recess assume there will still be a school to back to in a bit.

It's gonna have to get downright terrible before the "Smart" ones catch on, by then we'll have most likely have passed the tipping point long ago.

The problem with America today:
1) Neglects its own citizens. Health, Social Welfare, et cetera.
2) Allows greed to dominate internal and external agenda's.
3) Would rather spend money on wars than its own citizens.
4) Says its free, but reality speaking, is the most spied on by its own government.
5) Has a war on drugs, yet, also makes drug deals. Hmm. Hypocrisy??? Yes.

Even though America has these problems, I still love Americans. Just not all of them.

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: kwakakev

The similarities between the neoconservative and nazi policy has been termed as the fourth Reich.

Seems all we ever get a chance to vote for in this country ... is one candidate from the Fourth Reich, or the other one from the 5th Column.

Or many from the Third Party.

Playing both sides to divide and conquer! Just the same as bankers funding both sides of a war - win either way. There is an old saying in psychological warfare: "If you want to defeat your opposition, lead it"

originally posted by: Helious
which allows the NSA to illegally collect massive amounts of raw data on U.S. citizens.

That is to say, legally! And another nazi comparison - the nazis didnt do anything illegal because they passed laws making things legal!

originally posted by: Ridhya
Playing both sides to divide and conquer! Just the same as bankers funding both sides of a war - win either way. There is an old saying in psychological warfare: "If you want to defeat your opposition, lead it"

Well, we're doing a great job in the War on Terror then considering we're funding, training, and arming the terrorist groups out there.

a reply to: Helious

Kudos Helious.

I haven't read the comments yet, but can I just commend you on what is a very timely and very well written, factually sound, refreshingly rational and extremely well presented insight on what's behind the dramatic demise of USA. Where the US is heading, is a truly frightening and all too possible scenario if people such as yourself and others who happen to be as astute, educated and eloquent, fail to get this message through to what appears to be an alarming number of deaf ears… or is it just apathy and ignorance, behind why they seem to have ben able to do so much, so publicly, so brazenly, so obviously unconstitutional and illegal… yet nothing happens.

The silence is truly deafening… especially to those of us who have watched, read and observed this multitude of blatant and continual assaults on everything that America used to pride itself on, the ideals and morals inherent in its very fabric… and yet so quickly it seems to have fallen; made worse by the obvious apathy of its people towards the destruction of every tenant that should in fact define who they are as individuals.

Perhaps what would explain this, would be one of the most frightening and effective pieces of Nazism that's been infecting the USA for some time now… the art and power of Political Propaganda. Through this, you can make a man, a group and country believe almost anything you choose to drip-feed to them. No matter how horrific,. no matter how barbaric, no mater how depraved… I just hope we don't see the horrors of that brutal scan left on the soul of humanity repeated once again, less than 70 years after the fact.

Good luck… keep shouting; loud. Hopefully some voices will then decide to join you in the effort… and soon.

I've always been a bit surprised by how many never take the time to take the long view...

Two predictions I made 40 years ago:

#1. DAT (Digital Audio Tape) would be the death of cassette "party tapes". I would have been on the mark if the record industry had been able to strong-arm hardware manufacturers into including their copy-protection chips in all recorders. That didn't pan out and the vast majority of end users were scared off by the unusual name. A superior product that failed because of an uninformed public.

#2. The switch from analog telephone to digital would lead to the day where "trigger phrases" could be set and wire-tapping as we had known it would be ancient history. At that time, nobody believed me that there would ever be enough computer power to allow such a scenario. Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the mission statement is "Get It All". - There is no joy in being right on this one.

As someone who truly had a blast during "Digital '80s" and appreciates a finely made piece of hardware, it depresses the crap out of me the way that it has turned out to be used.

a reply to: Helious

Blah blah blah...the problem with America today is that sheep like and your ilk you allow yourselves to be bitterly divided over complete and utter nonsense while the corrupt elected officials rape the environment, destroy the economy and erode your liberty.

Americans treat their political party of choice like a sports team. Support them no matter what. Ignore the evils that they perpetrate as long as the "other team" doesn't win.

Americans in general are intellectually lazy and get exactly the government they deserve.

a reply to: duaneology

Americans treat their political party of choice like a sports team. Support them no matter what. Ignore the evils that they perpetrate as long as the "other team" doesn't win.

This I agree with 100% without any doubt. Sadly, the rest of your post is needlessly inflammatory and lacks any substance but thank you all the same for the reply.

as I see it, the democratic party has been taken over by "neoliberals",
"neoliberal" policies are things like NAFTA, de-regulation of the financial industry.

I get called a "bro-cialist", "bro-gressive", "manarchist", etc. by other left-wingers for my insistance on class being a focal point, not race, or gender, or sex-orientation.

Heck, I've wanted to shout out about clinton being a neo-lib warhawk.

My dissatisfaction with the left hasn't made the right-wing any more appealing however.

Maybe. I still think US citizens are privileged with personal freedoms and a wide sphere of influence. I envy Americans for living in the best country on Earth. Looking forward to become one of you guys and jump off this sinking Euro ship.

No worries, unless of course nobody can agree on enough issues to form a plan of action.

Anyway.

Many forget that we now live in a fascist country, with oligopolies running it behind the scenes. If people would just accept this FACT en-mass, we could then move forward to change it. We can't currently because some people keep on insisting that we live in is "the Greatest Nation on Earth". Nothing will change for the better until these people start realizing the truth or are forcefully condemned to fall with the fascists they blindly support.