By Grace Alone

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: tetra50

If this is about Christianity and the Christian understanding of "Grace" according to the Old and New Testament then shouldn't this be in the Religion section rather than the Philosophy and Metaphysical section?

You are saved by following The Word (Christ) which means actually taking ACTION:

Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Luke 6:35-36
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

You must actually DO the work in order to have the REWARD/CONSEQUENCE of being called "Children of The Highest".

Luke 6:44
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

You can't plant bramble bushes and expect to get grapes. You have to plant grape seeds in order to get grapes. You reap the fruits of the seeds you sow. You reap what you sow. If you are planting seeds (taking actions) that are not of God, then you do not receive the reward (fruit) of being called "Children of The Highest". Luke 6:35 says it all - you love your enemies and do good to them and THEN your reward is great and you will be called children of the highest.

So…..

if someone cut someone's head off over religion, they should get their head cut off, in response?

and that's where we will go from there: Judging other religions, reaching a stalemate, and doing what's been already done?
Yeah, that's right.
That's not what grace is about.
Grace is simple.
Grace loves us, when we don't know how to love.
Grace forgives, when we do not know how to forgive or proceed…..

friend.

a reply to: tetra50

So…..

if someone cut someone's head off over religion, they should get their head cut off, in response?

Christ did not teach revenge:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" - Matthew 5:44

Grace loves us, when we don't know how to love.

If you don't know how to love, then you're not a follower of Christ:

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." - John 13:35

Grace forgives, when we do not know how to forgive or proceed…..

You must forgive to receive forgiveness:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." - Matthew 6:14-15

Yeah, ummm. about grace, I think that's exactly what I was saying. But thanks for reaffirming it.
tetra

Your redemption lies in non-judgement. For the amount you are judging you shall be judged. A life absent judgement is a life full of grace.

Unfortunately for most not a day goes by without a myriad of judgerments being made on almost a moment to moment basis.

Everything from comparing ourselves to a perfect Idea (graven images) to almost every thing else in life. It is a learned obsession. But when accomplished leaves one in a state of Grace, a place of inner peace and contentment.

I hope this helps OP. As most are merely parroting the religious concepts of the day, without really understanding the true underlying meaning. Blind leading the blind in mental abstraction rather that feeling the Grace that lack of judgement of self and others imparts..

a reply to: tetra50

why do i feel like any time a word is applied in a religious context, its definition is rewritten to support that context?

You've touched on a great point

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth Acts17

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell Colossians1

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Romans3

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews10

originally posted by: tetra50



It means, I think, we are alive, created in His image, or someone's.

How can you know we, human beings, are created in 'gods' image? Have you seen him/her? What about all the other living beings on this world and others?

More likely, human beings have made 'god' in their image and I present the bible particularly the old testament as evidence of that. The god of the bible is petty, vengeful and cruel.

Regardless of that, WE ARE ALIVE.
If you are happy to be alive, respect the act of living, it follows that you won't hurt, nor disrespect any other life, for you so cherish life, ideally: that is, if you really do. If you really do feel that way about living, then this would follow, that you would respect and consider all who share this state of being with you, and regard them as you regard your own state of being.

Are you trying to say that I am disrepecting you because I don't agree with your beliefs of today. That is clearly not the case. I have the utmost respect for all beings, they have the same value as do I and I value the quality of 'seeking' that you are demonstrating and so I challenge position.

The meanings and understanding of faith are constantly changing (or should be), it is a dynamic process not a static dogmatic one.

This exists apart from your acts or otherwise.
Think about it: If we all held life in a cherished state as I describe, nothing else, your acts, your faith would matter…because they would all seek to raise up the act of living and all who live……Then, your acts and faith would follow, just for your state of appreciating life and state of grace…..

Is that not truly gracious and loving?

Yes - but has nothing to do with 'grace' and everything to do with deeds, words and thoughts.

You describe a archetype - an attribute of god or life if you will - it's a goal to be sought, it doesn't just miraclulously happened. This state of mind you describe can only be attained by effort - it can only be glimsed by grace but cannot be attained by grace. That temporary grace happens but it is an artifact of life (drugs, fasting, holy people can bring these temporary states on) but in no way the goal.

2 Corinthians 12
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians2

a reply to: FyreByrd

originally posted by: tetra50



It means, I think, we are alive, created in His image, or someone's.


How can you know we, human beings, are created in 'gods' image? Have you seen him/her? What about all the other living beings on this world and others?

More likely, human beings have made 'god' in their image and I present the bible particularly the old testament as evidence of that. The god of the bible is petty, vengeful and cruel.

No, I don't know that for sure. And we may be only as "special" a creation as we strive to be, by honoring our living state and that of other life. Yes, I tend to agree that we've likely made "god" in our image, what we wish a creator to be. It's likely neither of us will know the truth about this as long as we're here sharing ideas together. And yes, the old testament God surely does seem to be vengeful and cruel. There are other ways than the Bible, though, to experience, explore and consider a creator. I tend to see most of the Biblical story as warning and almost, behavior modification.

I have struggled with the whole concept most of my life that grace would be the one saving concept, in the end. Didn't really understand how acts, the life you lived, etc., wouldn't be more important. But then I began to reach some understanding that if God extends such grace to us, and we extend it to one another, all the rest--your acts, quality of life, intent--would seem to naturally follow.

Regardless of that, WE ARE ALIVE.
If you are happy to be alive, respect the act of living, it follows that you won't hurt, nor disrespect any other life, for you so cherish life, ideally: that is, if you really do. If you really do feel that way about living, then this would follow, that you would respect and consider all who share this state of being with you, and regard them as you regard your own state of being.


Are you trying to say that I am disrepecting you because I don't agree with your beliefs of today. That is clearly not the case. I have the utmost respect for all beings, they have the same value as do I and I value the quality of 'seeking' that you are demonstrating and so I challenge position.

The meanings and understanding of faith are constantly changing (or should be), it is a dynamic process not a static dogmatic one.

How you could get this from what I wrote above is beyond me. I don't "try" to imply anything, when I write. If I felt you were disrespecting me, I would have had no problem saying it, outright, just that simply. What I wrote there was simply another way of characterizing what I have now repeated many times: If we extend to each other the grace that God extends to us, it would seem to me that loving each other, respecting each other would follow…..

And of course it's a dynamic process. If you've read any threads I've written (really just one other) on this subject matter, then you'd know I'm obviously displaying exactly this dynamic process. The other religiously themed thread I wrote, someone said this to me about grace. And I simply didn't get it. This is both my attempt at trying to get it, and trying to extend grace to my fellow human beings, as the night I wrote this thread, I was reading nothing but hatred and disrespect being shared on this board.

You describe a archetype - an attribute of god or life if you will - it's a goal to be sought, it doesn't just miraclulously happened. This state of mind you describe can only be attained by effort - it can only be glimsed by grace but cannot be attained by grace. That temporary grace happens but it is an artifact of life (drugs, fasting, holy people can bring these temporary states on) but in no way the goal.

I am making that effort here, actually. I read what you write. I consider it fully and respectfully. And then I attempt to craft a response, that is as gracious as I can muster. In this way, grace is both an artefact of consciousness, when I consider what you've written, and an act of living, as I write back…

Thank you for your replies.
tetra

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: tetra50

why do i feel like any time a word is applied in a religious context, its definition is rewritten to support that context?

You are correct sir... Well said

This is exemplified by the word "grace"

Which was redefined by Paul... Jesus didn't even use the word

originally posted by: FyreByrd
I truly believe the Christian idea of Grace, as you've stated, is a cop-out in that grace removes any responsiblity for living a virtuous life and doing good works.

This is exactly WHY so few are going to make it to Heaven...

Cheap grace is the idea that "grace" did it all for me so I do not need to change my lifestyle. The believer who accepts the idea of "cheap grace" thinks he can continue to live like the rest of the world. Instead of following Christ in a radical way, the Christian lost in cheap grace thinks he can simply enjoy the consolations of his grace. ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I think the church is so completely out of touch with reality that it boggles the mind...

Two extremely powerful videos I ran across yesterday illustrate this perfectly:
Ex-witch Ana Mendez's testimony also contains a powerful illustration of this...

@35:30 min:

The greatest lie the devil has infiltated is that a sinner is a saved person, that a sinner can be a Spirit filled person. There is no where in the Bible and I challenge anyone here, theres no one in the Bible that considers a sinner a saved person.

@46:40 min:

Sin trespasses the spirit... we have changed the gospel and that is why we have so many people so full of demons. Because the gospel has been so watered down...

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6-10

We train people to repeat little things and we have turned the most powerful gospel, the most powerful essence of God in the world into little formulas that have millions of people bound up to lies. That's how we train our disciples today, this is what you have to say, this is what you don't have to say, we teach them how to discuss, but not how to manifest the Glory that destroys the enemy.

Christians in Hell

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.

There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.

Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.

It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God.

Placebo by Howard Pittman

Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”

Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.

Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.

Source

Interesting thread. It's probably obvious that I believe in the importance of Grace. There may be disagreements among us as to what the word means, but all in all, I think that Rush said it best.

"Like a million little doorways
All the choices we made
All the stages we passed through
All the roles we played

For so many different directions
Our separate paths might have turned
With every door that we opened
Every bridge that we burned

Somehow we find each other
Through all that masquerade
Somehow we found each other
Somehow we have stayed
In a state of grace..."

Cheers,

Grace

originally posted by: tetra50


I have struggled with the whole concept most of my life that grace would be the one saving concept, in the end. Didn't really understand how acts, the life you lived, etc., wouldn't be more important. But then I began to reach some understanding that if God extends such grace to us, and we extend it to one another, all the rest--your acts, quality of life, intent--would seem to naturally follow.

If, as you state, we receive 'grace' in direct proportion to that 'grace' with which we extend to others, then it is not 'grace' in the christian sense of the word - an undeserved or unearned state of salvation. It then becomes patience, tolerance and understanding of others that is a pracitsed, not bestowed, state of mind, words and deed. It requires action and intent.

How you could get this from what I wrote above is beyond me. I don't "try" to imply anything, when I write. If I felt you were disrespecting me, I would have had no problem saying it, outright, just that simply. What I wrote there was simply another way of characterizing what I have now repeated many times: If we extend to each other the grace that God extends to us, it would seem to me that loving each other, respecting each other would follow…..

Actually this is the first time you have said, "If we extend to each other the 'grace' that god....". We have to give it first, it is a willful act on our part not a state of being that we are given by a creator god.

The buddists have a simpler concept that of merit. Merit earned by actions, words and deeds. We all earn merit and we use it up unless we dedicate that good we have sown to others and by giving it to others it multiplies endlessly. On the other hand, we also collect de-merits that we can pay off (I'm over simplyfing) with our merit or still pass on that merit to others, growing the good - some may come to us, some may not - but the intention is the key and we - WE - not god are responsible.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I think the christian anaolg to merit would be:

(let me look this up....)

Matthew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

biblehub.com...

They use up the merit of their prayer and it's done. That's way jesus is telling us to pray in secret and I don't know of any dedicatory bible verses but perhaps you do. Prayer, or any other virtuous act, word or deed, creates 'grace' but by giving that 'grace' to others, it becomes mulitplied beyond comprehension - but you have to give up your claim to it.

a reply to: graceunderpressure

Grace is no longer grace if 'it' requires any action on our part.

Again from the "New Testament":

Romans 11:6 (don't know who the writing of "Romans" is attributed to but it isn't Jesus.

And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

biblehub.com...

and from wikipedia...

In Western Christian theology, grace has been defined, not as a created substance of any kind, but as "the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it",[1] "the condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race".[2] It is understood by Christians to be a spontaneous gift from God to man - "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved"[3] - that takes the form of divine favor, love, clemency, and a share in the divine life of God.

en.wikipedia.org...(Christianity)

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Grace is no longer grace if 'it' requires any action on our part.

A film I watched recently has an excellent illustration on this subject...

The bottom line is that you are talking about a world where crime goes unpunished.

"God wants to forgive people, so they can return to Him. But... God's desire to forgive can't override His perfect justice! People have to pay a penalty for breaking God's laws. And the penalty is: death."

Below is a transcript from the 28:50 min. point.

Jesus: That's exactly, how it is with God. He isn't interested in people performing well enough for Him. They can't possibly do that anyway. God created people to have a relationship with Him, so they can enjoy His love.

Nikki: So why don't they?

Jesus: Because man has rejected God, and severed the relationship. God's whole "program" (if you wanna call it that)is all that putting it back together.

Jesus: Who would you say is the best person in the world?

Nikki: Excuse me?

Jesus: Morally speaking: Who is the best person you can think of?

Nikki: Somebody like... Mother Teresa, I guess.

Jesus: Alright. We'll say, this is Mother Teresa, Now, who is the worst?

Nikki: Gosh... Osama Bin Laden, Jeffrey Dahmer... Hitler...

Nikki: Are you saying, that to God Mother Teresa and Hitler are essentially the same?

Jesus: Oh, no, no. Hitler was horribly evil, Mother Teresa did many good things! What I am saying, is: Mother Teresa for all her goodness was no closer to bridging the gap to God than Hitler was. Both of them - based on their own merits - were still a long away from being with God.

Nikki: So that's why you said, that keeping the Ten commandments won't get us into the Heaven?

Jesus: Right. Because no one could ever keep them well enough. Because God's standard is perfection.

Nikki: Boy, that's reassuring...

Jesus: And you wouldn't want it any other way.

Nikki: What that's supposed to mean?

Jesus: Would you really want the Universe to be run by someone who wasn't all about a perfect system of justice? A perfect brand of holiness?

Nikki: Why not? Perfect holiness is the last thing I need to deal with!

Jesus: So you would want a Universe where crime goes unpunished? Where someone who harms Sarah gets off scot free? Where somebody like Bin Laden isn't held accountable for 9/11?

Jesus: Not everyone is as bad as Bin Laden! No, but everyone is a rebel against God in their own way.

Nikki: It just doesn't seem fair, that God sees everyone in the same way, I mean... Some people are just worse than others!

Jesus: And God will handle them all accordingly!

Jesus: But that's just the whole point, Nikki: On what basis would you stand before a perfect God and say, that you've been good enough?

Nikki: But I thought, God is forgiving... With this perfect justice thing you are saying that God can't forgive anyone.

Jesus: God is forgiving more than anything else and God wants to forgive people, so they can return to Him. But... God's desire to forgive can't override His perfect justice! People have to pay a penalty for breaking God's laws. And the penalty is: death.

(Transcript is here BTW)

If, as you state, we receive 'grace' in direct proportion to that 'grace' with which we extend to others, then it is not 'grace' in the christian sense of the word - an undeserved or unearned state of salvation. It then becomes patience, tolerance and understanding of others that is a pracitsed, not bestowed, state of mind, words and deed. It requires action and intent.

I said nothing about "direct proportion." I'm not measuring anything. Nor do I endorse, nor believe in, "an undelivered or unearned state of salvation." However, I do believe and have faith in "a state of salvation."

They are quite different. You can quote me anything, referencing your POV. It wouldn't matter. The point is, I think that all life, by virtue, of being His creation, is automatically and sancrosant in requiring, a state of grace….regardless of deservedeness or direct proportion.

Obviously, I beg to differ about grace being actually dependent upon not deseverdness or being earned. That's about judgement, man's judgement, and I have little to no faith in that.
But this also brings us back to debating judgement, and Murgatroid's point about our Creator being perfect. And that brings us back to your point about man creating God in man's image: what we think of as "perfect." Why is it even so necessary we think of Him/Her as PERFECT? I think that whole word and concept has totally hijacked and totally lead man astray, and do nothing but HARM TO OTHER MEN AND WOMEN…..

As, that all requires judgement.
And I have not, and do not, ascribe to that.
I don't know if our creator is perfect. I really could care less. I kind of hate the word…."perfect." It is a continual source of human conflict and judgement.

To my way of thinking, grace transcends that, doesn't even stop to consider it, and doesn't want to.
Grace, to me, is God loving me, regardless and/or because of…..I couldn't care less or wonder why He thinks so….
I just know he does. It's real. And because I live and He is the reason I do, it is enough that He/She gives that grace to me. And I owe that to others, simply for my state of being alive.

That is my point.

Everything I've read, other than Gradeunderpressure's Rush Lyric response, has been about judgement…..
That isn't ours. It isn't even ours to interpret.

What I think I've discovered about grace, direct in proportion to JUDGEMENT, is that it makes sense of it all, in that, if you love your life and appreciate what/who gave it to you, and what it means to live it, then you will automatically understand and comprehend respecting/allowing/tolerating/considerating all those other lives out there, without all this nonsense of thinking you can interpret perfection and what God intended you to think about what He/She thought, etc……



I live….you live. I hurt…..you hurt. I feel pleasure; I feel pain as I have a body. So do you. I would rather not increase, nor give you pain.
tetra