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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: tetra50
If this is about Christianity and the Christian understanding of "Grace" according to the Old and New Testament then shouldn't this be in the Religion section rather than the Philosophy and Metaphysical section?
You are saved by following The Word (Christ) which means actually taking ACTION:
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:35-36
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
You must actually DO the work in order to have the REWARD/CONSEQUENCE of being called "Children of The Highest".
Luke 6:44
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
You can't plant bramble bushes and expect to get grapes. You have to plant grape seeds in order to get grapes. You reap the fruits of the seeds you sow. You reap what you sow. If you are planting seeds (taking actions) that are not of God, then you do not receive the reward (fruit) of being called "Children of The Highest". Luke 6:35 says it all - you love your enemies and do good to them and THEN your reward is great and you will be called children of the highest.
So…..
if someone cut someone's head off over religion, they should get their head cut off, in response?
Grace loves us, when we don't know how to love.
Grace forgives, when we do not know how to forgive or proceed…..
originally posted by: tetra50
It means, I think, we are alive, created in His image, or someone's.
Regardless of that, WE ARE ALIVE.
If you are happy to be alive, respect the act of living, it follows that you won't hurt, nor disrespect any other life, for you so cherish life, ideally: that is, if you really do. If you really do feel that way about living, then this would follow, that you would respect and consider all who share this state of being with you, and regard them as you regard your own state of being.
This exists apart from your acts or otherwise.
Think about it: If we all held life in a cherished state as I describe, nothing else, your acts, your faith would matter…because they would all seek to raise up the act of living and all who live……Then, your acts and faith would follow, just for your state of appreciating life and state of grace…..
Is that not truly gracious and loving?
originally posted by: tetra50
It means, I think, we are alive, created in His image, or someone's.
How can you know we, human beings, are created in 'gods' image? Have you seen him/her? What about all the other living beings on this world and others?
More likely, human beings have made 'god' in their image and I present the bible particularly the old testament as evidence of that. The god of the bible is petty, vengeful and cruel.
Regardless of that, WE ARE ALIVE.
If you are happy to be alive, respect the act of living, it follows that you won't hurt, nor disrespect any other life, for you so cherish life, ideally: that is, if you really do. If you really do feel that way about living, then this would follow, that you would respect and consider all who share this state of being with you, and regard them as you regard your own state of being.
Are you trying to say that I am disrepecting you because I don't agree with your beliefs of today. That is clearly not the case. I have the utmost respect for all beings, they have the same value as do I and I value the quality of 'seeking' that you are demonstrating and so I challenge position.
The meanings and understanding of faith are constantly changing (or should be), it is a dynamic process not a static dogmatic one.
You describe a archetype - an attribute of god or life if you will - it's a goal to be sought, it doesn't just miraclulously happened. This state of mind you describe can only be attained by effort - it can only be glimsed by grace but cannot be attained by grace. That temporary grace happens but it is an artifact of life (drugs, fasting, holy people can bring these temporary states on) but in no way the goal.
originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: tetra50
why do i feel like any time a word is applied in a religious context, its definition is rewritten to support that context?
originally posted by: FyreByrd
I truly believe the Christian idea of Grace, as you've stated, is a cop-out in that grace removes any responsiblity for living a virtuous life and doing good works.
Cheap grace is the idea that "grace" did it all for me so I do not need to change my lifestyle. The believer who accepts the idea of "cheap grace" thinks he can continue to live like the rest of the world. Instead of following Christ in a radical way, the Christian lost in cheap grace thinks he can simply enjoy the consolations of his grace. ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
@35:30 min:
The greatest lie the devil has infiltated is that a sinner is a saved person, that a sinner can be a Spirit filled person. There is no where in the Bible and I challenge anyone here, theres no one in the Bible that considers a sinner a saved person.
@46:40 min:
Sin trespasses the spirit... we have changed the gospel and that is why we have so many people so full of demons. Because the gospel has been so watered down...
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6-10
We train people to repeat little things and we have turned the most powerful gospel, the most powerful essence of God in the world into little formulas that have millions of people bound up to lies. That's how we train our disciples today, this is what you have to say, this is what you don't have to say, we teach them how to discuss, but not how to manifest the Glory that destroys the enemy.
Christians in Hell
The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.
The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.
There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)
Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1
Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”
Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai
On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.
Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.
It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God. Placebo by Howard Pittman
Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”
Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.
Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.
Source
originally posted by: tetra50
I have struggled with the whole concept most of my life that grace would be the one saving concept, in the end. Didn't really understand how acts, the life you lived, etc., wouldn't be more important. But then I began to reach some understanding that if God extends such grace to us, and we extend it to one another, all the rest--your acts, quality of life, intent--would seem to naturally follow.
How you could get this from what I wrote above is beyond me. I don't "try" to imply anything, when I write. If I felt you were disrespecting me, I would have had no problem saying it, outright, just that simply. What I wrote there was simply another way of characterizing what I have now repeated many times: If we extend to each other the grace that God extends to us, it would seem to me that loving each other, respecting each other would follow…..
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
In Western Christian theology, grace has been defined, not as a created substance of any kind, but as "the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it",[1] "the condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race".[2] It is understood by Christians to be a spontaneous gift from God to man - "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved"[3] - that takes the form of divine favor, love, clemency, and a share in the divine life of God.
originally posted by: FyreByrd
Grace is no longer grace if 'it' requires any action on our part.
"God wants to forgive people, so they can return to Him. But... God's desire to forgive can't override His perfect justice! People have to pay a penalty for breaking God's laws. And the penalty is: death."
Jesus: That's exactly, how it is with God. He isn't interested in people performing well enough for Him. They can't possibly do that anyway. God created people to have a relationship with Him, so they can enjoy His love.
Nikki: So why don't they?
Jesus: Because man has rejected God, and severed the relationship. God's whole "program" (if you wanna call it that)is all that putting it back together.
Jesus: Who would you say is the best person in the world?
Nikki: Excuse me?
Jesus: Morally speaking: Who is the best person you can think of?
Nikki: Somebody like... Mother Teresa, I guess.
Jesus: Alright. We'll say, this is Mother Teresa, Now, who is the worst?
Nikki: Gosh... Osama Bin Laden, Jeffrey Dahmer... Hitler...
Nikki: Are you saying, that to God Mother Teresa and Hitler are essentially the same?
Jesus: Oh, no, no. Hitler was horribly evil, Mother Teresa did many good things! What I am saying, is: Mother Teresa for all her goodness was no closer to bridging the gap to God than Hitler was. Both of them - based on their own merits - were still a long away from being with God.
Nikki: So that's why you said, that keeping the Ten commandments won't get us into the Heaven?
Jesus: Right. Because no one could ever keep them well enough. Because God's standard is perfection.
Nikki: Boy, that's reassuring...
Jesus: And you wouldn't want it any other way.
Nikki: What that's supposed to mean?
Jesus: Would you really want the Universe to be run by someone who wasn't all about a perfect system of justice? A perfect brand of holiness?
Nikki: Why not? Perfect holiness is the last thing I need to deal with!
Jesus: So you would want a Universe where crime goes unpunished? Where someone who harms Sarah gets off scot free? Where somebody like Bin Laden isn't held accountable for 9/11?
Jesus: Not everyone is as bad as Bin Laden! No, but everyone is a rebel against God in their own way.
Nikki: It just doesn't seem fair, that God sees everyone in the same way, I mean... Some people are just worse than others!
Jesus: And God will handle them all accordingly!
Jesus: But that's just the whole point, Nikki: On what basis would you stand before a perfect God and say, that you've been good enough?
Nikki: But I thought, God is forgiving... With this perfect justice thing you are saying that God can't forgive anyone.
Jesus: God is forgiving more than anything else and God wants to forgive people, so they can return to Him. But... God's desire to forgive can't override His perfect justice! People have to pay a penalty for breaking God's laws. And the penalty is: death.
If, as you state, we receive 'grace' in direct proportion to that 'grace' with which we extend to others, then it is not 'grace' in the christian sense of the word - an undeserved or unearned state of salvation. It then becomes patience, tolerance and understanding of others that is a pracitsed, not bestowed, state of mind, words and deed. It requires action and intent.