'Disturbing' footage shows US officer asking to see man's driving licence and then shooting him a

originally posted by: intrptr
Lets see, who's going home and sleep in their bed tonight?

Me, for a change, I got two weeks off. Generally I'm on nights.

I bet you call them names after they save your bacon on the side of the road when you are in an accident and bleeding.

That's EMS. You're confusing cops with real professionals like EMS and firefighters.

But that probably won't happen to you, either.

The only time I've called cops was to get case numbers for insurance, and 'afterwards' when something came up and I just dealt with it myself. Saved a lot of time.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
I had a feeling this story would show up on ATS. A few comments from the redneck side of the tracks...

First, although some may argue, I do not consider myself a "cop-hater." I have a lot of respect for the ones who try to do their job with common sense and restraint. If I am pulled over, I am being officially instructed to communicate with the officer, who is in charge of the situation. Fine. I can live with that (pun intended).

What I am not officially required to do is submit wholly and completely to the officer's will. That is a violation of my freedoms. I have to remain there, comply with all legal requests, accept arrest if warranted, and not become a threat to the officer. I do not have to be in fear for my life, submit to a beating, or comply with illegal requests.

It is in my best interest to be helpful and cooperative as much as possible, and these things I do. Sometimes the officer responds with respect and we resolve the situation.

Second, I understand completely the stress that on officer has to manage on a daily basis. That's why I am not a police officer; I don't want the stress, and I am not sure I could handle it on a daily basis. I have been shot at myself, have taken pot shots at poachers, and once had my .357 cocked and lying beside a guy's temple (robbery attempt). Thankfully I did not have to fire, but there was no doubt about my ability to do so. Still, after every situation like this, that cold feeling of 'what if' creeps into one's psyche. I am sure that is true for police as well as for non-police.

But the key here is that this is the job... this is not a surprise to those who hire on. If I become an astronaut, would it be reasonable for me to refuse to go into space because of the danger involved? No! I went into the occupation with my eyes open... and every police officer went into that occupation knowing it was a tough and dangerous job. I'm all for reasonable safety precautions, but can we define reasonable? I don't think shooting to stop (which is what police are trained to do) because someone wasn't wearing a seat belt and moved faster than was comfortable when asked to perform a task is a reasonable act to promote safety. Sure, the cop in this case was much safer after shooting the victim than he was before the victim was shot, but at the cost of the victim being unjustly injured. I consider that unreasonable.

There are two basic ways to respond to a situation: offense and defense. If one feels unsafe, the proper method is defense. Defense in this case would have been to perhaps unholster the weapon, perhaps even draw it, and to bark the order to "STOP!" That would perhaps have been reasonable, although even that action would have made me wonder about the officer's fitness for duty. Wonder is, however, orders of magnitude less damning than what happened.

Third, where was the officer's taser? I know, I know, I have been a loud opponent of taser use, but it would have still been preferable to a bullet in this case. The victim was not being pulled over for a violent offense and the officer had no information that could reasonably lead him to suspect that violence was imminent. If the sudden movement was so threatening to the officer, perhaps, just perhaps, something less lethal than a bullet could be used? I would still have thought the officer's response as excessive, but at least the victim wouldn't have been pumping blood all over the place.

Fourth, the quality of those who choose to wear the badge seems to be decreasing exponentially. I have mentioned before that the worst students I met while attending college were those in the Criminal Justice program (including more than one who actually said they wanted to be in law enforcement so they could "shoot people"). The days of the strong, secure, brave, and fair police officer seem to be gone... or at least rapidly disappearing.

Allow me to pose this dilemma: you are driving down the road when another car makes you pull off the road, be it through a verbal order or a physical maneuver. The inhabitants get out of the car and approach you with weapons clearly visible on their person. They order you about, look through your possessions, and threaten you. Perhaps their friends show up to increase their numbers. You get scared and make a sudden move, and are gunned down on the side of the road.

Does it really matter what "colors" the gang is wearing? Is blue somehow better than a different color?

The real difference is not that the car pulling you over is marked as a police car... it is that the police (supposedly) have a reputation of being fair with you. That doesn't mean they will allow themselves to come to harm or that they won't be ready to fight an armed attack with deadly force, but rather that they have no intention of harming you unless you take drastic action against them. If this be true, then you are being pulled over and placed in a situation where you have a reasonable expectation of safety due to the inhabitants of the car being police officers, as opposed to a group of thugs where you would have no such reasonable expectation of safety.

Once the ordinary citizen loses that reasonable expectation of safety in a confrontational situation with a police officer, the line between cop and thug blurs, and people begin to react to police the same way they would react to thugs. Just comply, don't say anything confrontational, make no sudden moves, try to survive the situation.

Or, perhaps, try to get away... at all costs.

This is the problem. People are rapidly losing that respect of the police, and as that respect erodes, the police no longer find the average person to be friendly and helpful. In science, when an experiment is conducted with a changed variable and the result is undesired, that variable is changed back to its original value and a different variable is altered. If you are driving a car and stepping on the brake makes the car slow down, you don't step on it harder wondering why the car isn't speeding up... you release the brake and try a different pedal. But somehow, in this case, the response by the police in general has been top become more thug-like, more intimidating, more suspicious, and to actually do some of the same things a thug would do: inflict pain, injure, and even kill.

All in the name of "safety."

An aside to the poster who earlier stated that he had three friends in law enforcement gunned down in LA: I am truly sorry. That is why I am (again) trying to speak out against this abuse of power we are seeing. It wasn't just one person who shot your friends; it was the fear that situations like this one cause that allowed and perhaps even encouraged the actions of those who pulled the trigger.

This officer over-reacted. Period. A person was injured needlessly due to his over-reaction. Outside of law enforcement, we call that "assault with a deadly weapon." Only when the attacker is wearing a blue uniform do we get to refer to it as "an accidental shooting." This was no accident... this was a pre-meditated decision by a professional to fire at a person accused of nothing more than failing to wear a seat belt while at a gas station and who tried to comply with a legal order a bit faster than the cop wished.

(more)

Thanks for the insightful post. I'm a cop, have been for almost 23 years. These types of situations make me sick.

a reply to: daaskapital

Holy #. This is really disturbing.....


I'm actually disgusted in the police, and usually it's grey enough I tend to feel the officer was at the very least in a situation he could have been in danger. Yes sometimes it's grey and an officer could have used other forms of force, but this officer shot the man after giving him an order that he followed. He even continued to shoot when the man put his hands in the air to surrender AFTER BEING SHOT !

a reply to: Bedlam

That's EMS. You're confusing cops with real professionals like EMS and firefighters.

Police get there first. They call EMS, usually.

The only time I've called cops was to get case numbers for insurance, and 'afterwards' when something came up and I just dealt with it myself. Saved a lot of time.

Probably won't get murdered by one either… or struck by lightning, eaten by sharks, etc.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Bedlam

That's EMS. You're confusing cops with real professionals like EMS and firefighters.

Police get there first. They call EMS, usually.

Wow. On my planet, it's more likely one of the people in the accident or a bystander uses a cell phone to call 911, who dispatches rescue, EMS, fire and police as necessary, rather than send a LEO to first assess the situation, who then calls EMS if they feel like it.

The way we do it gets medical help to a car crash a lot faster than waiting for someone to arrive who MIGHT have BLS at best to assess a situation they're incompetent to judge.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: daaskapital

While the victim had perhaps reached into his car in a slightly erratic manner without informing the officer of his intentions,

Yah, thats the crux of the matter. When being asked anything by a cop you never, ever suddenly turn and reach into your car without being specifically told.

Thats the "be very afraid " threshold for officers.

Got that everyone? Instead say, my wallets in the car and point.

I can't emphasize that enough. Never, ever reach for anything in your car without first expressly being told to.

When innocent people have innocent intentions, they are not concerned with what "scares" police, they are doing nothing wrong. Just because an officer can not know if he should be scared or not does not give him the right to attack anyone. What we have here is a white cop who believes because the person was black, he must have a gun? if was a 5 foot Asian exchange student would he still have shot? I doubt it.

If a cop dies because he underestimated a persons intentions, that is the cops problem and he was paid for his service and his or her wife or husband can have a free flag. Just because something "could" happen does not give the officer the right to attack preemptively before a threat is observed. If he was holding a hero sandwich, maybe I could see it, but this officer shot before the guy even turned around.

Make a rule of engagement for police: do not fire unless fired upon and watch all the fruitcakes quite while the men stay and do their job, unafraid and willing to "serve"

I'm bloody well tired of hearing people stick up for ill-behaved, dangerous and killer cops by using the "stressful nature of the job" as an excuse for unnecessary deaths.
Thank you Redneck for your thoughtful post!
This hapless shooting of people by LEOs is a relatively new thing in our culture. I know men that served in LE for 25-30 years and could count on both hands the number of times they ever drew their guns. Granted they served in small town departments or state patrols in rural areas, but they ran into their fair share of fellows and gals that were tanked up on booze or uppers or just plain meanness, but none of those people died.
This cop put a whole community at risk firing a gun toward innocent by-walkers and gas pumps!
I'm advocating that drug testing be done on every cop that fires his gun---steroid testing must become standard. That crap works on the paranoid sensors in the brain and makes for crazy.
Redneck has pointed out the importance of making their bosses accountable for them. If you are mistreated or disrespected by a cop for no reason, you must make a complaint. When the complaints pile up in their personnel records, the administration is forced to pay attention.
I know there are good cops out there but I now believe they are in the minority.

a reply to: bringmecoffee

If you are a cop for that many years, and you can still see what I have tried to convey, you, sir, have my admiration. As I stated at the beginning of my post, there are still good cops out there who deserve our respect and support. It's just that their numbers appear to be dwindling, while bad cops' numbers appear to be skyrocketing.

Kudos to you, and please stay safe out there.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

It's just that their numbers appear to be dwindling, while bad cops' numbers appear to be skyrocketing.

Damn skippy.

I hung my badge up 15 years ago. It wasn't bad cops ... it was policy that sickened me.

One thing to take into consideration here is that 'bad cops' aren't bad cops all the time. You put enough temptation in front of anyone and they'll fall for it. You frustrate somebody long enough ... and they'll act against their normal character.

Policy ... that protects normal cops from their bad mistakes ... sits at an echelon far above where they perform their services. You have to go after the government infrastructure (local, state, federal) that wrote these policies and keep them in play.

a reply to: Bedlam

…who then calls EMS if they feel like it.

Riiight…

a reply to: Snarl

Thanks for that inside insight. I agree with you.
Cops are the ones caught in the middle between the policy makers and the civilian.

The increase of violence nowadays on their part is negligible compared to the whole, but could as easily be laid at the feet of higher authority who don't seem to know the difference between right and wrong anymore. Why should police respect citizens rights when the US government can't respect rights of whole nations?

To listen to people on this thread some cry foul at their own police and cry war at the world. I would sure hate to be an officer right now, or in the military.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

When innocent people have innocent intentions, they are not concerned with what "scares" police, they are doing nothing wrong.

Thats contradictory. Police have no idea what people are thinking. Easy to look back, too.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Bedlam

…who then calls EMS if they feel like it.

Riiight…

Ahem...who said "They call EMS, usually". Hmm. Who could that have been. It is a mystery.

a reply to: Bedlam

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I said police usually arrive on the seen of an accident first. You said they call EMS if they feel like it?

Riiight…

My first thought after seeing this video was that the officer was
probably ex-military. I searched but could find no information
about that.

But, whether or not he was ex-military, we do seem to have
a situation in this country where we are training our future
police officers and federal officers (DHS, TSA) in the theater
of war overseas.

We are seeing an exponentially increase in the para-militarization
of local police forces--even for small towns. I live in a town of
six thousand people and our small police force proudly displays
its armored SWAT vehicle near the courthouse.

In my lifetime the paradigm has shifted from one where police
were trusted, respected, and welcome, to one where police are
feared, distrusted, and unwelcome. We are now a country of
citizen perpetrators who are "guilty until proven innocent".

The future truly is becoming one where you imagine a boot
stomping on a face...forever.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Bedlam

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I said police usually arrive on the seen of an accident first. You said they call EMS if they feel like it?

Riiight…

"...usually"

You might also try actually reading the post of mine you're commenting on. Of course, in your world, maybe 911 sends cops to evaluate if EMTs are needed. Doesn't happen anywhere I've been, though.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: MALBOSIA

When innocent people have innocent intentions, they are not concerned with what "scares" police, they are doing nothing wrong.

Thats contradictory. Police have no idea what people are thinking. Easy to look back, too.

Police don't have the right to know what I'm thinking until I am a clear and present danger. I guess it might be different in the States, when a guy is walking though Wall-Mart with an AR on his back I can understand why police and security would like to know his intentions. This man was not brandishing a weapon. He might have, is not provocation, the US is not a police state, yet. The officer could have drawn or and stayed low till he saw it and would still have the drop on him, if he was trained properly.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Police don't have the right to know what I'm thinking until I am a clear and present danger.

You saw the video. The guy turns and ducks back into his vehicle , he was angry at being "accosted" and can be heard to utter FFS, like how dare they bother me.

Then he returns to his vehicle… in the dark… out of the sight of the officer.

At what point don't your heckles go up? At what point (in the dark) do you calmly wait to be shot when he comes back out?

I understand your position and I've already stated the officer over reacted. I also stated 20/20 hindsight some are using use to convict him afterwards. They weren't there.

Done with this.

a reply to: Snarl

You do bring up a good point, and it's a point that speaks to both sides of the equation. It makes perfect sense that bad policy can turn a good cop bad, but it also makes sense that bad policy can make a good cop look bad. And it's not really whether the cop is good or bad that forms people's opinions... it's whether the cop looks good or bad.

I think a large part of this is the number of laws we now have. It's one thing to be pulled over and questioned because you were doing 80 in a 55 or because you blew through a stop sign; it's quite another to be pulled over and questioned because you pulled your seat belt off before you turned the motor off at a gas station (yes, I have seen police get involved with truckers over that).

Far too often, charges used as an excuse to stop and detain someone are so ludicrous as to be laughable if there wasn't a threat of harm involved: resisting arrest when there are no other charges to warrant arrest is a good example. It seems to me, as a layman, that when confronted with a cop I am able to be arrested and charged with almost anything for any reason based on the cops whim. That may not be completely true, but it is the impression that one can easily get, and it is that impression that drives the bad attitude many have toward police, that drives the bad attitude many police have against people, that drives the bad attitude many people have against cops, ad infinitum.

Militarization doesn't help either, and neither does extreme responses to minor problems. All of these are examples of exactly what you speak of.

The old days of being able to go about one's business secure in the knowledge that you have done nothing wrong are gone. Anyone can be subjected to police involvement at any time for any reason. One can be stopped and questioned any time, for any reason, and something can be found to be used against them. Here is a good example.

I know the official story is that arrests are not made in order to fulfill financial quotas, but I often wonder if that is not the case; it certainly looks like it at times. And police are employees, required to follow the orders of their superiors. If the superiors want more arrests and more tickets, what is the average police officer to do? Somehow get more arrests and write more tickets. I can't say that excuses the officers involved in situations like this one, but it certainly speaks to the cause behind their initial actions.

Good post.

TheRedneck

a reply to: daaskapital
I've watched the video several times, and I've made my sons watch it, too. I would have done the same thing as the victim--reach for my license, even if it meant turning back toward my car. Never again. Yes, there are fine policemen around, but some appear to be highly unequipped to handle the stress and are too quick to pull the trigger. Several years ago, I read about a SWAT team that raided the wrong house, and an elderly AA man was shot and killed when he dared to act surprised. Regarding this event, IMHO the angels were looking after the victim.