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symbolic interpretation of history

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posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 01:06 PM
A couple of days ago I stumbled over one of the most interesting sentences I've read in a while.

A distinguishing feature of Gnosticism is an illusive, symbolic interpretation of reality, including history.

This is similar to what I've been reading about Kabbalah, Plato and Rumi. For example this is from wikipedia:

The theory of Forms (or theory of Ideas) typically refers to the belief that the material world as it seems to us is not the real world, but only an "image" or "copy" of the real world. In some of Plato's dialogues, this is expressed by Socrates, who spoke of forms in formulating a solution to the problem of universals. The forms, according to Socrates, are archetypes or abstract representations of the many types of things, and properties we feel and see around us, that can only be perceived by reason (Greek: λογική). (That is, they are universals.) In other words, Socrates was able to recognize two worlds: the apparent world, which constantly changes, and an unchanging and unseen world of forms, which may be the cause of what is apparent.

Does anyone have any clue what this is about? Could you give me advice on where to start if I want to learn more about this?

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 01:12 PM

perhaps the world as we make it/perceive it and or the fabric of space and all its contains.

Maybe something like this is all a simulation.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 01:37 PM
a reply to: kodasaufa

Yeah, it is mindblowing.

I've found a video that is about these things. I think it's pretty good. But it was produced by Michael Laitman's institute and he seems like a bullchit artist to me.

I listened to a symphonic song when I had done a certain thing (clue: it's green) and I perceived a lot more of the song than when not having done that thing. This is probably related. I wonder how people like Mozart heard music. Probably very different from the regular Joe. The second time I tried to listen to the song when having done that thing was nothing special though. Haven't tried again after that. A lot of the modern music appears to me to be made specifically with the intention to dull our senses, until we are not much more than monkeys, something very similar to this:

The symphonic song I listened to was this:

When I had my spiritual awakening, including the awakening to conspiracy, I felt afterwards that it probably was an expansion of the consciousness. Perhaps into my own subconscious, so that what was previously subconscious emerged into the conscious, emerged through the surface.

I have also been feeling a lot like people are empty shells, or robots. They appear to be like puppets. Being nothing but a product of their conditioning. Weird feeling. Somewhat similar to how Truman in The Truman Show felt that all the people were actors. It makes me wonder if I am any different myself.
edit on 49930Fri, 12 Sep 2014 13:49:13 -0500201413pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-12T13:49:13-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 01:44 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

The word cattle derives from the word Culture.

So we are basically just sheeped along by whomever our current or past shepherds maybe

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:03 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

I think Plato was merely understanding the nature of creation.

Did man invent the light bulb or God?
Did man invent the internet or God?

You see men like to brag about the way they manipulate the elements in order to create things. Using Ideas that come to them, they build. Then they claim ownership of said thing they built, without giving credit to the devine for the idea.

Plato is saying that the true nature of all things belongs to the devine. The idea of the light bulb or the internet must stem from a perfect devine idea, not from man's own will or desire.

By understanding that even our ideas are part of God's creation we are more likely to thank God for the idea, rather than worship the self.

If the idea only originated in the mind of man, then no thanks to God is given. But since all ideas first belonged to the devine we are more likely to give thanks to God, for allowing our mind to perceive what was already created in the mind of the devine.

It is really about ownership, which leads to self-righteousness. If everything belongs to God, even the idea, then one is merely bringing devine knowledge to men, without ownership. Looking at our ideas in this way, allows us to thank God for devine inspiration. This thinking also prevents us from putting others on pedestals that were only intended for the devine.

Currently when a man builds something he obtains material wealth. Failure to acknowledge the true nature of things leads to justified wealth, even while others suffer.

The builder who owns his idea, sells it to the congregation for a profit, not believing he owes anything to God, and most certainly owing nothing to humanity.

The builder who allows devine ownership of his ideas will give it to the congregation, without regard for material wealth.

Not that the builder won't receive material reward, God has ordained material reward for work with one's hands, but rather that reward will be seen in it's true light. The reward for the builder who believes in Plato is both spiritual and material. This builder is more likely to assume a modest income giving the rest to God, who inspired the idea to begin with.

Should a man obtain unlimited power and wealth because of an idea? Or does even the idea belong to God? If we believe the idea comes from God the builders assume a more moderate role walking away from the snares of greed.

Plato believed man should humble himself by crediting the devine as the true creator of everything, even the idea.
edit on 12-9-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:07 PM
a reply to: kodasaufa

That's a very interesting subject that I've been thinking a lot about. I think it seems like the shepherds try to accelerate an inevitable evolution, which is an evolution towards centralization of power, people becoming less and less spiritual and many other things. This is synonymous with crony capitalism and it leads to depression, alienation and neurosis. But this is desirable. Anyway, this is slightly a different topic. I have been philosophizing about it and writing notes. I might post a thread about it some time if I ever compose something worthwhile of it.

One thing I have been thinking about that might be related to this "symbolic interpretation of history" is that it's known that religions are full of allegories, but what if a lot more of what we see and hear is a form of allegory in a similar way? For example I've been thinking about the numerous "secret societies" with initiations. For example about how the initiate is given ordeals that he must pass to show that his character is such that he is suitable for further initiation. This might be an allegory of your own life, and your outer world is the lodge if you will. You are given ordeals to see if you can handle them correctly to determine if you'll go on or remain on the same level or descend.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:17 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

Hey there,

You might start with emanationism. Plato was interpreting Socrates, and over 500 years later it was Plotinus that tried to "restore" the teachings of Plato. Plotinus said that he was teaching something that Plato taught that was lost, and it had to do with mimesis.

It was the so called "Gnostics" (Iamblichus to be precise) that started the whole bull# story that involves the manifest world as being counterfeit and the flesh evil.

It was a mistake, a mistake that has been the basis for some great science fiction and some mighty doom porn, but it was a mistake that Plotinus tried to correct while he was still alive.

The mistake is that there is anyone involved in our woes but us.




The word cattle derives from the word Culture. So we are basically just sheeped along by whomever our current or past shepherds maybe

See? That's some of the bull# right there.
edit on 12-9-2014 by Bybyots because:

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:27 PM
Interesting subject, I'm an avid reader / student of Plato and the kabbalah and similar subjects and that's kind of how I arrived at my theory which I think is along similar lines to what you are discussing.

If you get the time please read my thread in my signature, I think you might find it interesting and given the subjects you are interested in, I'd appreciate your thoughts on it. Please read my replys on it as well as I elaborate on it more through out the thread.

If you're interested in the modern view of the world as an illusion I recommend John Talbots "the holographic universe" it's an excellent book that builds upon David Bohm ' s holographic universe theory, a theory shared by "fringe physicists" such as Bohm, Pribraim and Kaku and in a more ancient sense it is essentially the theory of esoteric kabbalah as well as most religions, excellent book, fascinating subject and I think between all these things lies the answer to the nature of our universe.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:27 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25

Thanks. Interesting post. Made me think.

I have been thinking a lot about the ego, greed, hierarchy etc. For example I have been thinking a lot about how it's claimed that the catholic church was only a power tool and it was only about concealing truth. Well, was it? When you think about it, there probably cannot exist a civilization without a power hierarchy, i.e. without exploitation of those below. Without such power hierarchy we would still be in the stone age and not a single book would have been printed, nor would there be any laptops to read on or to communicate with such as we are doing now. This becomes ironic when you see people condemning things like the catholic church, using laptops and internet. And I view the whole conspiracy in the same way. Here's an example of a guy who does not view the world in this way:

I think the tower of Babel is related to all this. Michael Laitman (the bullchit artist?) talks about this here, about how we've "closed the circle":

edit on 39930Fri, 12 Sep 2014 14:39:42 -0500201442pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-12T14:39:42-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:37 PM
a reply to: Bybyots

Plato believed in the Angel/Spirit trapped in the daemon/flesh.

The Angel/Spirit within all men guides men to the perfect form.

The physical world Daemon/Flesh is the false world.

The Angel is not removed from the creator but by one step, like a near perfect reflection. But the imperfect flesh is twice removed from the nature of the creator, an imperfect reflection.

In Plato it says the God's are not at war.

The Angel within you, the reflection of God that lives within you, can never be at war with the Angel in me.

The two Angels, who reflect God's love cannot be at war. But the flesh that is twice removed from perfection is where the wars between us originate.

We must follow the Angel/Holy Spirit within, or we will continue to be subjected to the imperfect desire of the flesh.

Do you follow Love, Angel, Holy Spirit? Or
Do you follow Lust, Daemon, Flesh?

The Angles find peace with one another, while Daemons know only of their selfish desires, standing opposed to one another in fear and envy.

It's time to break free from the chains, take the stairs to the light, where the truth of God can be found within. The Cave
edit on 12-9-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 02:49 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

I do find it very interesting with the whole thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing. And how evolution seems to be dependent on force and counter-force. The establishment needs the opposition. And I find it very interesting how fear seems to be if not synonymous with enlightenment then the other side of the coin or intimately related. Those who just think all is well are the gullible, they are totally shallow and politically correct. Some degree of paranoia seems to be necessary to gain enlightenment. And there might even be a correlation such that the more paranoid the more you're gaining enlightenment. That's the antithesis. And then you gain enlightenment, that's the synthesis. In a similar way as Nazism and the Jews interacted.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:04 PM
a reply to: Bybyots

Thanks. Interesting. Definititely plan to research this more, although I have already been researching somewhat similar things.

What is wrong do you think in what was written there?

kodasaufa: The word cattle derives from the word Culture. So we are basically just sheeped along by whomever our current or past shepherds maybe

I have been wondering if the people in our outer world are part of ourself. Then those higher up in the hierarchy might be our "oversoul", like the Monad written about here. But I don't know anything. I do find it very interesting that my country has very much immigration happening simultaneously as the conspiracy and all that stuff emerged into my consciousness. It's almost as if the conspiracy and the immigrants both emerge out of the dark depths of my own subconscious mind.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:15 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

Acording to the Koran and Martin Luther the Catholic Church was the invention of the Anti- Christ.

If we can believe that Martin Luther was correct, the Koran tells us that the church was created by false Jews who don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

So what is the false doctrine? Original Sin.

We are all born to reflect the perfect nature, the Holy Spirit within us. But we were also born in an imperfect flesh that stands against perfection. It is this imperfection that causes sin.

What the Catholic church and all 40,000 denominations teach is Sin/Satan is something that you can never overcome. This thinking is maddening wine according to Revelation.

For the children who have not reached the age of reason, it is true they will fall into sin by lack of understanding.

But what does the bible say about adults who have the ability to reason.

As adults, when we have the mind to reason, we can reason our desires and compare them to what we know about love. We can see clearly the desires of the Holy Spirit within and will reject the desires of the flesh that stand against the Holy Spirit. By reasoning and the Holy Spirit we can overcome these desires and be free from sin/Satan. FREEWILL choice.

For the one who believes in Original Sin according to the Catholic church, they can never actually grab a hold of perfection. They have performed a ritual that acknowledges the imperfection but does nothing to bring the congregation towards perfection. The Catholic Church is where sinners go to repent, but they remain under sin/Satan until a future judgement day. NO FREEWILL, ruled by sin/Satan.

Enlightenment comes from believing in and subsequently following the "light", Holy Spirit. How can anyone follow the perfect light who doesn't believe it is possible? Who doesn't believe in FREEWILL?

The concept of Original Sin, keeps men from believing in thier own perfection Angel/Holy Spirit within. We are not supposed to live our whole lives under Sin/Satan, we are supposed to overcome Sin/Satan by the power of the perfect light within.

We are born unable to distinguish clearly between the flesh and the Spirit, and this is the state of mind that is best for the church. Original Sin is the concept that controls us, makes us believe in ritual over love, and leaves man a prisoner in his own mind.

Let go of Sin and be lead only by the perfect Spirit.

Those who died to flesh have been reborn of God, they do not continue to sin, the Holy Spirit keeps them safe, and Satan cannot tempt them. Those who obey the Hoy Spirit are children of God. All others are lead by the carnal mind that satisfies only itself.

1 John 5
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

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posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:17 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

Plato's Theory of Forms has since been updated by Aristotle, and has ever since been known as the Problem of Universals. It is a thousands year problem between particulars and universals.

What Plato meant was that even though there are billions of particular human beings, there is one universal idea of a human being, of which all human beings are a part of and share in. He imagined this universal idea existed somewhere apart from the particulars, in perhaps another realm. Although that is over simplifying it, that's the gist.

Read Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy" for a basic layman's rundown of this and other philosophical subjects.

Here's an excerpt:

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:20 PM
a reply to: Elijah23

Thanks for the book tip.

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:47 PM
a reply to: Words

Problems only arise in the mind of the spiritually week.

Ideas are formed both by the devine and the total of all experience in our life.

The only problem comes from Plato's students who refuse to believe in a devine origin of self. The perfect form of man is love and virtue according to Plato and all religious texts.

Aristotle and Nietzsche believed their is no devine law that suggests love and peace have any devine value. Love is subject to man's definition not some devine archetype.

Plato could accept that divine knowledge, supported our understanding of our experiences. Without accepting the devine truth one's own mind would stand against the Holy Spirit within.

I propose this is why Nietzsche went mad.

Attempting to justify things that stand against the Holy Spirt by refusing to believe in the Holy Spirit, is madness.

Plato believed in the Holy Spirit, The light, Devine inspiration. And believed their was a law at work within men that was devine and could not be altered by our perception of it.

To claim that Aristotle's works advanced the understanding of Plato is simply false. Aristotle is a roadblock to understanding Plato not a doorway.

edit on 12-9-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:50 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25


What I mean is that maybe the catholic church does indeed conceal and distort truth. But maybe this is a necessary evil? As I said, I think there cannot be a civilization without hierarchy. The way I view it is that the catholic church, as an example, works as a two-way street. On the one hand it conceals truth, for a purpose which probably ultimately is for the greater good, and on the other hand it works as a vehicle of esoteric truth.

I think that perhaps individuals to whom truth is concealed are not at the level where that truth is appropriate for them.

And I also think that the whole physical "plane" probably exists for one reason only; to correct sin. The hierarchical civilization serves the purpose of correcting sin, this is synonymous with the physical plane. When sin is gradually corrected, the outer world changes accordingly.

Why is there ever tighter crony capitalism? And why does the world appear to be falling apart? The whole thing does to me have a striking similarity to how an asperger mind with its rigid left brain hemisphere structure gradually develops into a schizophrenic mind, with its right brain hemisphere structure, or perhaps lack of structure. Which appears to be an ascent from hierarchy to some kind of new world order. Note how Karl Marx talked about the development from capitalism to socialism to communism. Pagan, Christian and Jew appears to be the same thing. This is something I've written more about in my notes. Might post it some time.
edit on 55930Fri, 12 Sep 2014 15:55:38 -0500201438pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-12T15:55:38-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 04:02 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

Everything was either created as it is, or allowed to be as it is. So everything could be considered necessary according to God's standards. But we are not God, so we should not attempt to justify what stands against us.

Why do you want the same hierarchy for the perfect spirit as the imperfect flesh?

Jesus said their is no hierarchy in the Spiritual. The Holy Spirit, the devine knowledge of God lives within all men.

In the material, imperfect world, thier is a hierarchy. Man created a material church based on sin and material wealth, tithes. And they believe in a hierarchy to understanding God.

God created the Spiritual Church within you, the same perfect form in me is the same perfect form in you. In this way we are all taught and led by the same Holy Spirit, not by men who's opinions and laws are subject to change on a whim.

Thier is only one esoteric truth. God's devine law, the Holy Spirit is within you. One need only to reason with oneself to understand this esoteric truth. This is the sum of all religious knowledge.
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posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 05:02 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25

This turns into an interesting discussion. It seems to be somewhat related to the OP so I'll keep going.

Of course I don't know how it works. I'm only hypothesizing. Firstly, the outer world might not be as physical as we perceive it to be. It might change as our own inner mind evolves. I'm not sure if the outer world is a projection of my mind, or if my mind is shaped by my outer world. This is highly interesting to me. I have for example noted how muslim countries usually have very low tax, very small government. In such a context, islam appears to be pretty much THE only reasonable way to live. In a modern Western country however, things look very different. I've also noted how people from the most "westernized" countries, if we're going to use that term, appear to be the most autistic and neurotic etc. I've written about this elsewhere. Anyway, back to the catholic church. Well, I think I'm going to outline briefly my current working hypothesis of how the world works, because this seems to be the right place to do that.

Evolution goes in one direction only. One of the distinguishing marks of being low in evolution is a lack of insight into the bigger picture, and a lack of understanding of abstraction.

Those that are low in the evolution live in areas with no or very little government. There is anarchy or free market capitalism.

The more evolved, the more crony capitalism.

In the race where the fittest survive it is not only such things as being the smartest that determine survival. He who is less limited by morals has an advantage over he who is more limited by morals.

When people migrate to a more evolved area their minds are not immune to the conditioning that that entails. Thus they fall astray in the land of sin. Which is the same development for everybody, whether migrant or not.

So you have a few that might be living as ascetics and monks or perish as underdog because of adherence to morals. But most will follow lower desires.

The whole evolution goes on and on, developing into ever tighter groupthink and ever lower vibration. Until a few people can't stand the pressure any longer. These become mad and disordered, which is a blessing, a sign you've come to the next level.

What I wanted to say was that as this evolution goes on your own inner mind has to deal with it all, and that manifests as fear. That fear is enlightenment. The more corruption in your outer world the more fear in you. People high in the evolution are very paranoid and very alienated/atomized. This is where you find a vast majority of the members of this forum I believe. Eventually it reaches a point where all your inner fears have been erased, which is the same as the total correction of sin. This might have happened to some people already. Do they and we really live in the same world? I don't know, this is something I think about a lot. This is a very interesting map related to all this:

I also find "liberalism" a very interesting subject. I think that people are like sheep. What happens when people are "liberated" is that they'll run around like headless chickens. They think they're following their heart, but they're really following their conditioning, i.e. their subconscious. I'm not sure it's all bad though. For example it might lead to a narcissistic mother who follows the TV rather than church, which then is the new church. As far as I'm concerned there is no real difference between a church and a TV, they're just at different stages of evolution, but both are media. Anyway, the child of that mother might become alienated and whatnot, might end up a conspiracy theorist. Might hate his parents, might have no friends etc. But since when are the most well-adjusted the most enlightened?


So while I think that a person that is "liberated" from religious dogma will most likely be a worse parent, which is also affected by all that which has filled the mind in place of religion, such as feminism and promiscuity, I think this has a good side-effect. As the evolution goes in this direction, as I described above, there will eventually come a generation of "forever alones", autistics, and otherwise socially inhibited. But I think there is a good reason this is written in Gospel of Thomas:

Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

edit on 19930Fri, 12 Sep 2014 17:19:37 -0500201437pAmerica/Chicago2014-09-12T17:19:37-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 05:33 PM
a reply to: introspectionist

I think everyone needs to watch Avatar until they realize the evolved ones are not the ones searching for, properly named, unobtanium.

I see it this way, The closer the mind gets to "material enlightenment", the further away they are from "spiritual enlightenment".

The more we build, the more distractions we create. Those distractions occupy our time, but they don't fill us with positive emotions.

With the number of distractions in our current world, it's possible to live ones life dedicated only to the distractions. Never even looking past the distractions and asking the biggest question. Why? Why are we here? To be distracted without reasoning, this is the state of mind our leaders hope for.

The first step to enlightenment is to ask why? Scientists have been good with the How, but the How is still empty without the why.

Once you realize that enlightenment comes from within it is easier to understand the distractions.
It is the distractions that make life worth living.

But life is found in the WHY, not in the how and certainly never in the distractions.

Without God, I agree on where you put the future of mankind. I believe that God has a better plan for us, so I hold onto hope.

edit on 12-9-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

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