Majestic 12: A UFO Disinformation Scandal

a reply to: Bybyots

I did get to watch Disc one (apparently there is a 2nd disc of further interviews to go through - glad I went for the DVD package now!).

Linda Howe seems very agitated (or does she always blink about a 100 times a minute?) when discussing what the premise of the documentary is and then when she tells about the document Doty presented to her regarding the supposed origin of man.

Doty appears to be a man who lives in a place where fact and fiction live happily side by side in his mind. Perhaps he no longer makes the distinction himself. He is certainly an intriguing guy to listen to. He seems to convince himself of the truth of a lie before he tells everyone else.

Perhaps he is an upgrade on Fred Crisman?

I think I'll have to look through the DVD again to absorb it all. It was certainly a different angle than most documentaries have taken on the subject.

a reply to: karl 12

Thanks Karl.

Mark Pilkington suggests to Linda Howe, on screen, that his movie is about a real phenomenon but has been polluted by the likes of Doty etc. But it seems that the whole documentary paints the picture that US intelligence was behind the promotion of much of what has now become UFO mythology.

Which makes you wonder if Doty''s magic even worked on Pilkington.

a reply to: mirageman

Awesome,

Yes, Fred Crisman was involved with Ronald Dahl in the Maury Island incident.

Fred Crisman

a reply to: combatmaster

Hi combatmaster,

I was wondering if you know if the Cash-Landrum incident has come up at all in reference to Astr0's story?

Thanks



ETA: Oh sorry, I've found it, it's on page 2 and it looks like the Cash-Landrum craft was "one of theirs"

Thanks again,

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: combatmaster

Hi combatmaster,

I was wondering if you know if the Cash-Landrum incident has come up at all in reference to Astr0's story?

Thanks

ETA: Oh sorry, I've found it, it's on page 2 and it looks like the Cash-Landrum craft was "one of theirs"

Thanks again,

Yes....

I was gonna tell you, that, and also the rendelsham incident is mentioned as well as A51

a reply to: mirageman

Linda Howe seems very agitated (or does she always blink about a 100 times a minute?) when discussing what the premise of the documentary is and then when she tells about the document Doty presented to her regarding the supposed origin of man.

For sure, that was probably my favorite part of the film. Poor Linda, I'm grateful that we are able to watch from the sidelines as they go throught that instead of going through it with them. Poor thing, the way her eyes become so pleading when she realizes what's going on.

Sad but edifying.

a reply to: combatmaster


So done deal, right? Someone wants us to believe that there are these atomic-powered spacecraft and Doty is a source for the meme.

Gotta admit, this stinks of SERPO/Doty.

And the trippiest part is that there may very well be spacecraft like that

Holy #

ETA: Goddammnit! Now I'm chasing my tail again. Hooo, too much Doty consumed too quickly. I've hit a wall. Back later.

a reply to: mirageman

The first thing you notice about the group is that they are all males.
I spent some time back in the 1990's trying to categorize the MJ 12 legend.
Most of the sites looked like honey pots, you only got as much as you brought to the table.
Back in the 50's there were the more familiar COMINT, SIGINT, ELINT, NRO designations.
No comprehensive intelligence gathering agency would be all male.

Could just be a case of "Nitimur in vetitum semper, cupimusque negata" (We are ever striving after what is forbidden, and coveting what is denied us).

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: mirageman

Awesome,

Yes, Fred Crisman was involved with Ronald Dahl in the Maury Island incident.

Fred Crisman

I know this is taking the main direction of the thread slightly off topic but Fred Crisman (also an intelligence agent) is an odd character who :

* In the 1940s made claims that he was injured in WWII Burma by a lazer weapon by super robots from beneath the earth. The creatures he encounterd subterranean-dwelling "Deros," or "detrimental robots." as he called them.

* Was the perpetrator of a UFO hoax (the Maury Island UFO incident).

* Agitated to bring down the Mayor and many of the City Council of Tacoma in the early 1970s.

* Was possibly disguised as a vagrant and taken into custody, or was a radio operator on the "grassy knoll" (is there any other grassy knoll in history?) in Dallas on the day of the JFK assassination. He was also supposedly the first person called by Clay Shaw after Shaw's arrest in relation to the investigations that followed.

Crisman died in 1975 (aged just 56) but somehow I doubt his tactics and methods died with him.


I did notice that when Doty discusses the origin of the MJ-12 documents he merely states he was cleared by investigations of any involvement and does not issue any outright denial of such. So perhaps Crisman was a blueprint and Doty followed?

Doty hinted that 20% of his information was truth disguised in lies without giving away any clues. Maybe that was a lie as well?

just got done the film, which was very slick. lundberg and pilkington have been accused of being responsible for the "alien autopsy" film, which if true could reframe "miragemen" for us in a very meta way. hired hoaxers produce film about hired hoaxers.

originally posted by: mirageman

Doty hinted that 20% of his information was truth disguised in lies without giving away any clues. Maybe that was a lie as well?

the guy has no tells whatsoever, but also has an unusually restricted range of expression. his face comes in two flavors, beady-eyed and blank or smug self-satisfaction. in the footage where he slinks through the geriatric conference goers, darting his shiny little head around like a weasel clocking the slowest chickens in the coop, one gets a strong sense of the man at work.

he is characterized by other interviewees as amiable, trustworthy, a good storyteller. on camera, he is off-putting, cold, a poor speaker, at times even a little feeble minded. when he got outed as an op, i bet he was delegated to serve as public whipping boy for a public hep to the disinfo projects. it'd be interesting to get ahold of his banking records lol. private citizen my meaty clackers.

anyway, wouldn't it be funny if that 20% consisted of two simple statements? there are secret military craft AND there are ufos.

originally posted by: mirageman

* In the 1940s made claims that he was injured in WWII Burma by a lazer weapon by super robots from beneath the earth. The creatures he encounterd subterranean-dwelling "Deros," or "detrimental robots." as he called them.

crisman got that story from a guy named richard shaver, who was published by another guy named ray palmer who published stories of flying saucers which might have been a proto-op to orient public perception of ufological activity strictly toward the realm of fiction.

good write up on that here.

and hey, mirageman? if you are involved in any way with the film, i hope you don't take that "alien autopsy" comment personally, bud.

originally posted by: ATODASO


...hey, mirageman? if you are involved in any way with the film, i hope you don't take that "alien autopsy" comment personally, bud.

I give you my word I had nothing to do with the "Miragemen" movie. If I had I am sure I would not have had to fork out a tenner for the DVD.

There is the possibility that Pilkington and Lundberg were involved or inspired by Ray Santilli and the cash he creamed from one of the world's biggest frauds since the Hitler Diaries. Lundberg was a known crop circle hoaxer. Maybe he moved on in his craft to aliens? The whole "Alien Autopsy" affair is probably worth a thread on it's own

So what is truth and what is fiction in the ufological world? Doty's shenanigans have fudged the publics and researchers quest for the truth. Are alien abductions,cattle mutilations,multiple supposed crashes and retrievals of UFOs all bunk now?

I never put much stock into MJ12,Dulce...etc and have warned people off numerous times on other boards to not get mixed up in that BS or believe it. That still leaves lots of other stuff out there but any researcher or experiencer who references MJ12 or Dulce is now suspect in my opinion.

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
So what is truth and what is fiction in the ufological world? Doty's shenanigans have fudged the publics and researchers quest for the truth. Are alien abductions,cattle mutilations,multiple supposed crashes and retrievals of UFOs all bunk now?

I never put much stock into MJ12,Dulce...etc and have warned people off numerous times on other boards to not get mixed up in that BS or believe it. That still leaves lots of other stuff out there but any researcher or experiencer who references MJ12 or Dulce is now suspect in my opinion.

Yes indeed what is the truth and what is fiction in the ufological world? There has been a steady supply of toxins added to the stream of information for decades. Not all of it from military and intelligence sources either.

The thing about the MJ12 documents is that the trail leads back to Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera (possibly encouraged by our friend from the AFOSI). However the amount of time and resources put into making them appear initially plausible (and requiring some real digging to prove otherwise) suggests that this wasn't an exercise in entertainment alone.

Given the current state of ufology you do have to wonder if the paranoia of the Cold War and governments' treatment of the UFO topic went side by side. But it only takes one genuine find and everything changes.

a reply to: Bybyots

So done deal, right? Someone wants us to believe that there are these atomic-powered spacecraft and Doty is a source for the meme.

OK. Just watched Mirage Men. That is some crazy poop.

a reply to: mirageman

It seems like the purpose of your thread is to damage the credibility of Mr. Doty, which does seem already tarnished.

You do know, I hope, that is a classic disinfo technique when the PTB would like the attention taken off what somebody is saying, because there claims are hard to ignore.

Many on ATS believe Majic/Majority 12 existed and probably exists in some form today. That the documents were fake is immaterial - if MJ12 existed that is all we need to know, as a poster above has somehow missed.

Maybe he has had a change of heart, and the claims he is making now about the Air Force bear some scrutiny?

I will do some more research on this............

I know also many on here believe the Air Force has completely covered up their tens of thousands of cases on UFO's/aliens - for a fact - and virtually none but the most gullible is willing to believe anything the Air Force says about these matters.

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
So what is truth and what is fiction in the ufological world? Doty's shenanigans have fudged the publics and researchers quest for the truth. Are alien abductions,cattle mutilations,multiple supposed crashes and retrievals of UFOs all bunk now?

I never put much stock into MJ12,Dulce...etc and have warned people off numerous times on other boards to not get mixed up in that BS or believe it. That still leaves lots of other stuff out there but any researcher or experiencer who references MJ12 or Dulce is now suspect in my opinion.

The MJ12 DOCUMENTS are in question, not MJ12 itself.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

The MJ12 DOCUMENTS are in question, not MJ12 itself.

I think the only reference to MJ12 is the documents.

After watching Mirage Man, I got the impression that Doty was a little..
compromised? I don't think he has a clue.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

The original intention of the thread was simply to discuss the MJ-12 topic that had been brought up yet again by a number of UFO researchers. Grant Cameron pointing out the documents were fake but the MJ-12 group was real.Kevin Randle stated that there was not one bona fide document that links the US Government to something called MJ-12. Finally Alejandro Rojas taking a totally different angle and attempting to prize an answer out of the US Air Force on what actions they took (or didn't) on some of the claims Rick Doty made of carrying out criminal activity whilst working for the AFOSI.

Doty actually denies any involvement with creating the MJ-12 documents but admits on film (Mirage Men) to spreading disinformation whilst maintaining that about 20% of what he has said is the truth.

As you say the credibility of Doty is already tarnished.

But there is still a intriguing mystery to be solved here. As I posted a bit earlier the trail of the MJ-12 documents leads back to Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera. However the documents were a massive intricate piece of work and a very elaborate hoax. They were seemingly not created for financial gain or fame.

So who created the MJ-12 documents? What was the motive for doing so and why has the author(s) remained anonymous for 30 years?

How did I miss this? Alejandro is kicking butt with his logic and search for justice. I'll be back, gotta check out those links. Yet another impressive and appreciated thread MM.