Common Core Is Like A Hangover

a reply to: TDawgRex

As I've already said, I excel at math. I always have. I do this process naturally when I try to figure things out in my head. While I don't have a math degree, I totally could get one with all the math classes I took in college. As someone who can relate to teachers not moving quick enough for me (since I can learn rather quickly), any method that gets the slower kids to learn quicker, I'm all for.

I also happen to like solving basic math problems with more complex approaches to help me understand the concepts better. I've integrated horizontal lines to find the area of rectangles/squares, for fun. I've done the same with sloped lines for triangles. Like I said, as long as the procedure is valid, the answer will come out the same. So why does the procedure matter? That is the beauty of math, the flexibility of the approach all while being able to obtain the same result.

a reply to: TDawgRex

I tend to agree more with your line of thinking TDawg. I don't necessarily like what I have heard about common core, but I haven't studied it enough to condemn/demonize it all together yet. It is something I will definitely have to look into regardless of whether my daughter will be affected or not. I certainly don't think the drop in our standing as one of the most educated nations in the world is due to anything common core will be bringing to the table though. We were the best in the world at one time and that time was before our benevolent government felt the need to step in and "fix" it.

I'm leery of anything the government wants to improve or fix at this point. Their track record doesn't instill a ton of hope that whatever they do is benefiting anything other than themselves and their own agendas.

As I said a few times before... Looking at simple addition being done this way leaves me feeling that they are making it more complex than necessary (in my eyes and mind). Maybe the more adept at math don't see it because it isn't difficult for them to begin with, I don't know.

I thank you for commenting.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't think of my opposition to common core as a political thing, but rather more personal based upon my experiences, which I'm sure every one on both sides of this debate is doing as well.

I'm a high school drop out, but did continue (and still do) my education. (but that's another long story)

I just found that when the teacher made things interesting, I learned better. Maybe it was because of the way the teacher presented herself in the video while explaining the 9+6 that turned me off? She reminded me of other teachers I had.

Like you, I used different strategies when solving math problems in school but damn near failed because I wasn't using the schools curriculum. When you're a teen and getting the answer right, and yet failing the course because you won't toe the line, it becomes very frustrating and disheartening.

But math isn't the only thing that common core is failing at.

a reply to: TDawgRex

With this I can agree. I certainly did come across my fair share of teachers who insisted you do things their way despite being better ways that I liked to do things. I took a programming class in high school where the teacher forced us to hand write our code before we put it into a compiler. This seemed like tedious busywork to me especially since we were literally about to sit at a computer and type it up. So I understand completely where you are coming from there. But it has usually been my experience with math teachers that as long as you did the right calculations and got the right answer, they tend not to care how you arrived at it. You just have to always make sure you show your work (and even that rule becomes more lax in later math courses as teachers will let you skip some steps on paper since the operation is obvious).

I want to like anything that will help my kids do better. I'm so frustrated with schools trying to teach every child the same. I have a child that's an auditory learner. The teacher needs to be able to try different methods if the child isn't getting it.

As long as children don't fall behind I don't see an issue. What I do see as an issue is all of you that say its confusing. I see that as a problem for parents trying to help kids. Common core may need parent training as well from what I see above

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
I want to like anything that will help my kids do better. I'm so frustrated with schools trying to teach every child the same. I have a child that's an auditory learner. The teacher needs to be able to try different methods if the child isn't getting it.

As long as children don't fall behind I don't see an issue. What I do see as an issue is all of you that say its confusing. I see that as a problem for parents trying to help kids. Common core may need parent training as well from what I see above

I think we all want that. I know I do. Like TDawg above... I was a high school drop out. I admire his courage to say that these days so I can do no less in my own thread. Math made me hate school so much more than I already did. I was straight "A"'s other than that one class. I certainly want far more for my daughter.

Kids learning different is dead on. It reminds me of when my father tried (endlessly it seemed at the time) to teach me how to drive a straight gear car. I could ever get it. Never. I met a guy a few years later and it took all of 5 minutes for me to feel like I had been doing it for years. The way something is taught is just as important as what's being taught in a lot of cases IMO.

So you may be on to something there...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Semi off-topic...or maybe it's on point. It's an example anyways.

When I was younger and had been in the military a couple years, my unit went to a training range (Grafenwohr, Germany) and our mission was to blow a bridge for that day. It was a very sturdy bridge meant to allow tanks to cross. We drew 40lbs of C-4 from the AHA (we did have other training missions later in the week) and went out to the bridge.

I did the computations real quick like and grabbed 4lbs and we started to break the sticks in half for placement. Our LT came over and asked us what we were doing when we started for the bridge pointing back at the other 36 lbs of C-4. Aren't we forgetting something? Our Sergeant pointed out we didn't need all that and the mission was to bring the bridge down, not make matchsticks out of it, he even showed him my computations. A epic yelling match ensued until it got to the point where the LT called the CPT and had the CPT back him up. At which point, the Sergeant said screw it and had us go back and get the rest. He covered his ass and had witnesses to back him up.

Long story short, it was a EPIC explosion and not only turned the bridge into matchsticks, but also made the ravine deeper and we finally got rid of two idiot officers (they were fired in the aftermath of the investigation) and we shut down every range for a day on base. I think we even blew out some windows in a nearby town. There were a lot of angry people that day. LOL

That is an example on how I liked to apply math. I could see the results.

a reply to: TDawgRex

Oh don't get me started on stupid officers in the military. I used to be in Field Artillery as an MLRS operator and I was assigned to the unit's ammo platoon. During a firing exercise of the MLRS, our unit needed to block off the roads so that no civilian cars drove by and got caught up in the back blast. So an LT jumped out and decided to park us in the spots where we were supposed to block traffic (instead of letting our SSG do it). Except the idiot drove us across the street from all the firing locations. I was blocking a street and looking at the MLRS parked in the field over (meaning that me and the other guy in the truck were at risk of being hit by the backblast). Yea... Can't spell lost without L T.

Though to be honest, the military is a whole different animal then a school classroom.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You were a Rocket Rat!?

My last duty station while active was at Bragg in the 3/27th, then I went Reserves and deployed even more than when I was in the 82d. And here I thought being a Reservist was a part-time job.

There is a lot of math used in the military, especially Arty and CBRNE, (and medical of course). And I've rarely seen even the most idiotic Soldiers fail to grasp it. I think that former military make the best teachers having had a few myself growing up. They seem to recognize when a student is having problems and have multiple solutions on hand from experiance to overcome those problems.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: Krazysh0t

You were a Rocket Rat!?

I know I aced the ASVAB too and could have qualified for literally any job in the military. I watched the MLRS blow up a countryside and I was sold. I joined the NG for a bit and switched to IT though.

My last duty station while active was at Bragg in the 3/27th, then I went Reserves and deployed even more than when I was in the 82d.

And here I thought being a Reservist was a part-time job.

Mine was Ft. Sill. In fact that's where I spent my whole enlistment (except for the time I was in Iraq).

There is a lot of math used in the military, especially Arty and CBRNE, (and medical of course). And I've rarely seen even the most idiotic Soldiers fail to grasp it. I think that former military make the best teachers having had a few myself growing up. They seem to recognize when a student is having problems and have multiple solutions on hand from experiance to overcome those problems.

Maybe in the support fields, but in combat arms, math is the furthest thing from their minds. The dumbest soldier I met was in BT. He failed the ASVAB 3 times and when he finally passed, was only able to qualify for a combat arms (I believe he was 11B).

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I started out as a Cav Scout, back before the Bradley and we had to learn basically every Combat Arms MOS back then before we graduated. Maybe that was one of the more educated MOS's? And a grunt who cannot grasp basic math isn't going very far either...unless he goes to OCS. Then went to CBRNE, where there was a LOT more math involved and then on to PSYOP, where I had to learn computations for leaflet drops and statistics as to the effectiveness of how our missions were being tracked, by both command and the target audience. You can't escape math. LOL

When the newer comms gear starting coming out, I had to resort to older techniques of learning, since there were so many different types we used, but required in order to communicate. At one point, we had five different systems and all had to be set up a certain way in order to communicate. That was annoying as well. But I ran into a young kid who was a wiz and he taught me a easy peesy way to get over my hump. He'd make a great teacher. He was enthusiastic about his job.

I think that is why I am against common core. It seems to me that it takes the individual (and their learning abilities) out of the equation.

a reply to: TDawgRex

I'm for anything that helps people understand math better. If it works, use it. If it doesn't then use a different method. Like I said earlier, the route to the answer is irrelevant as long as it works.

I'm 37 btw. And maybe that is why I am having a harder time with this than others. Teaching it that way just blows my mind. It may be normal for the younger kids right now. I've no clue.

I know I'm old and dusty.

Old and dusty? You gotta get that out of your head! 37 is spring chicken country! I'm 59 and when I look back at 37 I was strong and vibrant! When you hit my age what will you say..."I'm used up and flatlined"? Give your head a shake Kanga!

I was always good in math. It cam naturally so i was lucky kinda. When i got older it did not work. Especially algebra. I learned Algebra Early in a Magnet school 5th grade. Had to take it again in 7th. Problem was i could do almost all of it in my head. I had a problem doing it the long way filling up half the sheet of paper with the details they wanted. They failed me on my daily work even though i got the answers right. Said i cheated. I got pissed off and took myself to the teachers desk sat across from him and insisted he give me a new assignment. I did the work right in front of him. Got them all right. He said good but he would fail me because i did not show my work. I said i figured out a better faster way, why not teach it to everyone. That was not an option, had to follow the text book. I did it my way all the way though the class. He passed me with a D to get rid of me. Later in college i had to do trig. I never had it in high school i quit in 10th grade i could not stand how they taught. In college i could not understand how they were teaching me trig. So i researched myself out of many different book i acquired I was paying for college and i wasn't going to fail. I combined all the knowledge i found into a drawing that showed everything. I had it aced. Next quarter a friend a quarter behind was having trouble with trig. So much he wanted to drop out. I copied the diagram i made and gave it to him. Two days later he was an ace. His teacher was astonished. Asked him what happened all of a sudden. He gave him the diagram. He distributed it to the class. That whole class improved. This was very important to learning there as it was for an electronics degree and math and formulas were everything. Shortcuts can help make it less difficult, i proved it. This new longer math sucks !@#$%

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: TDawgRex

I'm for anything that helps people understand math better. If it works, use it. If it doesn't then use a different method. Like I said earlier, the route to the answer is irrelevant as long as it works.

And I think you hit the nail right there. Common core removes other methods of teaching. It makes teaching even more standardized. One way, and one way only. That's why I'm against it.

Like Kanga, I had no problem with my other classes and excelled at most, with the exception of math. I believe that it was because my other teachers were flexible and either taught me news ways to look at something, or they accepted the fact that I figured another way myself. My math teachers on the other hand were sticklers for following a set pattern.

a reply to: tridentblue

The thing is that some kids will need it, but what about the kids who don't? The thing with Common Core is that it reduces all the kids to the least common denominator and presumes that everyone needs it like this. It makes it far more complicated than it needs to be for kids whose brains already "get it" and those kids are going to be lost to boredom.

So, your "dumb" kids are actually potentially going to be your best ones unless you provide an outlet for them, but this curriculum doesn't do that. Even our current pre-school teacher is upset about that, and SHE'S only teaching preschool. Imagine what will start happening at higher levels.

a reply to: Iamthatbish

We actually drilled our math facts so that we memorized most of them that went with the basic numbers both addition/subtraction and multiplication/division. I remember playing lots of around the world with flash cards and doing timed tests and things like that.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

I took all my math classes backwards. In h.s. I switched to business math and accounting math, so in college and University I had to take Calculus ans Statistics. It was odd. Idnk I took them backwards.

One of my math classes had a class of adults before that had problems like 34+97 on the board all the time. It made me certain my kids wouldn't have that problem!

You must be good at math to be able to do it backwards like that. Seriously... Because you usually need to build up to learn how to do the newer things.

When I was in high school the highest math I could take was algebra. My daughter took that in 6th or 7th grade. I can't recall which at the moment. She has since done geometry and trigonometry. I was absolutely no help there. At all.

I was in advanced track math where I was at, so I got up to Calculus before I left high school.

Our Calc teacher was really good. We had class time to do almost all our work in class, and he'd keep all the answers at his desk. We had to make an honest attempt at the problem beforehand, but we could always take our work up to compare with his, and he would go through any problem with us to help us work through where we went wrong before sending us back to work through it again.

a reply to: theantediluvian

No, he is not. Here's the thing.

I agree that teaching methods like this are not evil in and of themselves ... until they become the default method when there are simpler alternatives available that most kids will understand how to use. If you find it easier to use a longer form method, then use it, but if you understand the shorthand method most people use, that should be taught like it always has.

I got taught the lattice method when I was in school, and I used it for fun for off and a on for a few years because I thought it was cool, but it was complicated enough that no one should be forced to do it who doesn't need to use it.

These methods overly complicate something that doesn't need to be, and if you don't need it drawn out because your brain makes those connections for you, then you shouldn't be forced to have to do it when we have a system of mathematics shorthand that has been taught for decades that works fine and worked fine when our country's math scores were much better than they are today. Clearly, it isn't the shorthand being used that is causing the problem.

I do math the way they explained it in the video, it's not how I was taught in school but rather something I taught myself at some point because I do all my addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in my head rather than on paper. I even do them left to right rather than the traditional right to left (hundreds before ones for example). Once you've learned how to do it that way it gets very easy and very fast, I often get remarks on how fast I can compute things in my head (and the people I hang out with are math majors so they know their way around numbers).

The teachers explanation is a bit long winded but speaking as someone who learned and used the traditional method in grade school and then came to a realization about this on their own (I felt real clever that day) and has used it for many years after high school in their personal/professional life and college it does work. It scales up well too unlike more traditional methods which quickly require paper to keep track of the numbers. This method works well past the simple numbers we all know. Math is all about the process and having a good process makes things so much easier.

Let me give an example we'll take 57*28 (numbers I just thought up that wouldn't be an obvious answer), I'm using multiplication rather than addition because multiplication is really just another way to express a long addition problem (57+57... 28 times) and I want to demonstrate how this process scales. To do this quickly in your head you can split this into four parts in an equation
((50*30)-(50*2))+((7*30)-(7*2))


(50*30) is easy that's 1500, the 50*30 comes from the 50 in 57 while the 30 is the closest number for 28
(50*2) is also easy that's 100, the 50*2 represents the difference between 57*28 and 57*30 which you want to subtract

(7*30) is slightly harder. I've found that flipping it to 30*7 makes it slightly easier. Either way however with some basic multiplication table knowledge you should be able to recognize this as "21"+"0" for 210
(7*2) is the most complicated of the bunch but it's small and we've all had it drilled into us from multiplication tables so while it's not easy most people can recognize it as 14 almost instantly.

The multiplications by 7 are the same thing as by 50 except here we're doing the ones column rather than the 10's.

So now the equation looks like: (1500-100)+(210-14). It's very easy to recognize that as 1400+196. Which is then easy to add together as 1596. Though to follow this method precisely you'll see this as 1400+200+10-10-4 which cancels to 1400+200-4. Again, it's a long process to explain and sounds complicated but is easy to compute mentally.

Teaching this to kids is a good thing.