The Seven Churches and The New Messiah

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

No, we are not Jesus.

Jesus is God in the flesh, but God has many attributes, including those of the Holy Spirit.

The problem we have as humans is understanding who Jesus is outside of the human realm. He is God. He is the Holy Spirit. He is capable of taking on many forms, both celestial and terrestrial.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The temple in Revelation is not the temple that fell in 70 AD. Revelation depicts the 70th Week. That span of time is yet to come. Its like arguing with a child. You dont get the basics, so you fill in the gaps with esoteric garbage. Revelation is to be interpreted by the bible alone. It is the capstone of the OT and NT. I dont know what else to say, when I have already proven that Revelation was written 4200 years after Adam' s fall (94AD). Its as simple as counting syllables...a pattern so prevalent, that the Phoenecians handed it down to the Mayans, from the Hebrews.

Your timing is off, your interpretation of prophecy is completely contrary to the bible and the surrounding context, and you have yet to provide a thorough explanation on why you insist on leaving Paul out. Fallacy built upon fallacy, as usual.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Your timing is off, your interpretation of prophecy is completely contrary to the bible and the surrounding context, and you have yet to provide a thorough explanation on why you insist on leaving Paul out. Fallacy built upon fallacy, as usual.

Hmmmm...

Its like arguing with a child. You dont get the basics, so you fill in the gaps with esoteric garbage.

a reply to: Deetermined

Now this here quote shows the Gnostic origin of the Gospel dedicated to John. Water (Aqua) and Spirit (Aer) are both being classical elements. Or does being born of Water and Spirit constitute to a splash of water on a crying baby's head and a pigeon release?

Jesus never baptised a single one BTW. That was John the Baptist his hermit cousin's thing. Jesus is talking deep Gnosticism and Hermetic philosophy here, not just simulated drowning.

"The wind* blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." [ESV] John 3:8
*) The same Greek word means both wind and spirit [ESV]

A minute can last a lifetime. A day can be a thousand years. But speeding round the inner worlds while the clock is ticking... People should learn to trim their wicks and not burn the candle both ends.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

What do you expect me to answer to this?

You basically say all my research is nonsense, but you fail to provide any explanation other than referring to your own research which is about something completely contrary. Help me here.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Being born of water means to be born of the flesh.

Then we are to be born by the Spirit.

When it says "not born of blood", it only means that bloodlines did not determine who was saved and who was not. It was through flesh first and spirit second.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Also - Grand Theft Donkey???? LOL!! Loved it.

Yes, he was quite the character.

Score for Utnapisjtim. (By the way, friend, what does your username signify, and may I ask what your ethnicity/culture/language of birth are?)

Utnapishtim is the Chaldee name for Noah. Being Norwegian I first tried registering as Heimdall, the Norse version, but it was not available. I chose Norwegian transliteration.

I don't belong to any church or religion, but I guess you could say I got a thing for religion and the old mysteries in my early twenties, and that has developed into something of a mania, I buy new bookshelves every year and about half of those shelves are dedicated to Religion, most prominently Hebrew and Greek Biblical languages and literature related to the Bible, Judaism and Christianity, a ton of different bibles well it's become my all-time obsession.

And a while back as I was writing a post in reply to a some thread I figured I'd rather start a few threads showing exactly how I interpret Revelation. That has resulted in this thread here and the seven threads about the scroll with seven seals, over the past couple of days. And more is coming up.

Oh, also: belated Star and Flag for the entertainment and educational value.

Thanks mister

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You could start by re-evaluating your theory. My data does support the mainstream view of 94 AD, and many aspects of the dispensational model. BTW, the meter is not my research, Im just auditing it, and successfully replicating the results. Try using the bible to interpret the bible rather than introducing esoteric conjecture. Hisorical data should come secondary.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

In 94 AD John the Scribe was over 90 years old. Perhaps that can explain why many people find this book impossible to understand: It was written by a senile fossil with Alzheimer, while being locked up at The Patmos Retirement Home.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

People dont understand Revelation because they dont read and understand the bible. The answer to every unsealed mystery in Revelation is found elsewhere in the bible. Not the Talmud, and certainly not the Cabala.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

The answer to every unsealed mystery in Revelation is found elsewhere in the bible.

You are aware that "The Bible" didn't exist at the time Revelation was written. The closest you'd get was the LXX or the Tannakh, but the books included were not usually kept in one compact codex like we have become accustomed to with off-set printed bibles of streamlined quality. It was more common to divide the canon into three: The Torah (Law), the Nevi'im (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings), and the selections of codexes included were not uniform.

The NT of 27 books we have today seems to having been based on Origen's (of Alexandria) selection from the early third century, but there was no official canon and most common were disputes over the canonical validity of Hebrews, James, 2nd and 3rd John, 2nd Peter and Revelation. Contrary to popular belief the canon wasn't established at Nicea in 325, the debate would still be going for quite a few decades until the time of Augustine around the turn of the fifth century, where we find the first evidence of a "final" canon as such.

en.wikipedia.org...

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books that would formally become the New Testament canon,[6] and he used the word "canonized" (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[7] The first council that accepted the present Catholic canon (the Canon of Trent) may have been the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (AD 393); the acts of this council, however, are lost. A brief summary of the acts was read at and accepted by the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.[8] These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.

Not the Talmud, and certainly not the Cabala.

Always a pleasure discussing these things when people are as openminded and respectful as yourself.

When doing research, in this case establishing names of arch angels and their planetary associations, in relation to Revelation, well, you can't pick and choose, and certainly not exclude the traditions who originally dealt with this. You'll have to provide all data you can find and if there is no consensus, which there doesn't seem to be beyond "the four", Mike, Gabe, Ralph and Uri, hopefully this research can contribute to establishing such a consensus.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The temple in Revelation is not the temple that fell in 70 AD.

There are HEATHENS in Heaven?

Its like arguing with a child.

Didn't Jesus say: "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it" ?

Revelation is very clear about who speaks to John. The One that speaks is Alpha and Omega, who was dead and is now alive forever more. That same One claims the title of being "The Almighty". That One is named Jesus Christ. He is embodiment of the true Living God Almighty. He is the ONLY face of God we will ever see and his face the saved will behold for the whole eternity. He and the Father/Holy Spirit are One and the same. Colossians 2:9: "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

So no, the Millennial King and "New Messiah" are not 2 different beings. It's one and the same Jesus Christ :
Hebrews 13:8 :Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. It's the One of whom Issiah spoke of:

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note the titles Jesus Christ has: he is Wonderful, Counsellor, El Gibor (Mighty God), The EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. He is also Alpha and Omega, the 1st and the last, the Almighty.

Stop the false doctrines and read the Bible, it's all written in there and it takes no genius to understand what it says. Just be honest and do not twist and turn the Word of God.

originally posted by: justamessenger
Revelation is very clear about who speaks to John. The One that speaks is Alpha and Omega, who was dead and is now alive forever more. That same One claims the title of being "The Almighty". That One is named Jesus Christ. He is embodiment of the true Living God Almighty. He is the ONLY face of God we will ever see and his face the saved will behold for the whole eternity. He and the Father/Holy Spirit are One and the same. Colossians 2:9: "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

So no, the Millennial King and "New Messiah" are not 2 different beings. It's one and the same Jesus Christ :
Hebrews 13:8 :Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. It's the One of whom Issiah spoke of:

'The Millennium King' and 'The New Messiah' are one and the same. But the 'Millennium King'-- the person Jesus refers to as 'He who conquers' (ESV) or 'He who overcometh' (KJV)-- is not Jesus. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, he sits at the throne of God.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note the titles Jesus Christ has: he is Wonderful, Counsellor, El Gibor (Mighty God), The EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. He is also Alpha and Omega, the 1st and the last, the Almighty.

Stop the false doctrines and read the Bible, it's all written in there and it takes no genius to understand what it says. Just be honest and do not twist and turn the Word of God.

Now if you keep on reading in Isaiah 9, the surrounding verses show what kind of kingdom we are talking about: The Messiah is to order and establish an everlasting 'Kingdom of David', on Earth and sit on the 'Throne of David'. This Wonderful Counsellor is of the House of David and rules as king of the united Israel-Judah, even including the extended tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim, and also include Zebulon and Naphtali. And most important, he will make peace in the Middle East. Because he is Righteous and Just he will bring Peace.

Now all of this fits with Jesus, except for the part about reestablishing the Kingdom of David and making peace with the 'goyim' beyond Jordan and Galilee. What we see and have seen in the Middle East today is the exact opposite. They don't even manage to make peace within their own borders.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So, now you're going to try and convince everyone that the "Lamb of God" is not Jesus in the book of Revelation (which John wrote) even though John clearly says he is in the book of John?! Good luck with that.

And he [the Lamb of God] went and took the scroll from the right hand of him [Jesus] who was seated on the throne. [ESV] Revelation 5:7

How can the Lamb of God receive the scroll from God if he is both persons?

originally posted by: Deetermined
God can be everywhere at the same time. He is not bound my time, space or physics that only your simple mind is capable of understanding.

What can you reply to that? I mean, simple mind and all. I know Jesus said everything is possible for God, and since I expect your mind is far more advanced than mine-- can you please explain how God does this? And not to forget, WHY is he multiple people, even standing face to face and interacting with each other? Are you saying heaven is a One Man Band?

The way I see it, things are not this complicated, it's rather straightforward. One day equals 1000 years, and we are about to enter the Seventh Millennium, the Sabbath. And the Father of Jesus rests for it is his Sabbath. Jesus, however does not rest on the Sabbath, for he is the High Priest and on the Sabbath the priest rules over the king. And as all priests must be married and have children according to the Torah, Jesus becomes a Father himself, and since he is the High Priest of Heaven, he sits down at God's throne and works as regent or vicar in his Father's absence, and as long as the Sabbath lasts, Jesus rules Heaven as God.

One resting (Grand-) Father (Jahveh Elohim). One God who is the Alpha and Omega (Jesus), and he is the Father of the Messiah who is the anointed king of the house of David. The Lamb of God is a forth character, for unlike the Messiah, the Lamb of God leaves with the Father of Jesus and is not present at Earth during the Peace Millennium, but returns together with God after the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem makes their return possible and proper.

You say all these people are one and the same. Because everything is possible for God. How can you beat that?

Hey fwiw,

I interpret the seven spirits of god as;

in order for him to be present/omniwhat? (in each dimension), are there only seven dimensions?

Do all seven dimensions share the same universal space/time/real-estate?

Or is that what the universe may be comprised of?

Who can god high-five with if not himself?

angels?

My reading comp skills may be off today, sorry for any confusion.

@ Utnapisjtim

You are obviously very very confused when it comes to these matters. I advise you to read the Bible again and again and again until you realize what's it all about.

OT speaks about Yahshua and has many many prophecies regarding Him. NT is a proof he came and died for our sins. HE (God Almighty) is the only One who is worthy and capable of such a feat. He willingly lowered Himself to become a servant so all those who believe in HIM could live forever. He makes claims that nobody else has ever made. He claims titles for himself that are identical to the ones Yahweh of OT made. Finally Revelation reveals us what He Himself has planned in high details. John describes the Glory of Yahweh which is our Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God the Redeemer.

It's all about eternal existence which He Himself only posses (angels will be also judged by Christ and are not immortal since the fallen ones will be cast into fire and be destroyed forever) and which he wants to share with us. He wants to be with us forever and was willing to become a man and even die human death, an act which was total separation from the Holy Spirit and which nobody but Himself can know what it feels like. For a human to try and begin to understand what that might have felt like is similar to trying to figure out infinity- human mind is incapable of doing that.

So trust in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Almighty. When He comes again , the Lord's prayer will be finally answered and He will dwell among us forever.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

There is a temple in heaven which serves as the template for which the earthly temples were modeled after, but the earthly temple in Revelation that involves the Abomination is not the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. It is a rebuilt temple dedicated to Apollyon, the beast. Apollyon is not Rome, but the same king who founded Nineveh.

You are correct, that the LXX was the only surviving copy of the scriptures at the time, and ALL of the mysteries of Revelation are answered in those books (exluding the Apocrypha). The words of Jesus in the Gospel offer a deeper view into the prophecies, where the rest of the NT provides a structure to these prophecies. The priciple still stands, that the answer to Revelation is the completed cannon of scripture.

I apologize for being disrespectfull earlier. Please understand that the very scriptures you are offering to interpret are the words that saved my life. I feel indebted to them. I listen to those words, and not the words of preachers or any other man.

My main point is, that by using the Bible alone, a clear and seamless picture can already be drawn...like pieces of a puzzle fitting together. There is no need for outside esoteric philosophies. Compare your theory to the bible's self guided revelation and see which is more likely.

The Messiah is late for the party in my opinion.

originally posted by: loveguy
Hey fwiw,

I interpret the seven spirits of god as;

in order for him to be present/omniwhat? (in each dimension), are there only seven dimensions?

Do all seven dimensions share the same universal space/time/real-estate?

Kabbalah says there are 10 or 11 dimensions, and this corresponds to how modern physics describes 11 dimensions, where all three linear or spacial dimensions are three-dimensional, thus length, height and depth are 3 dimensions each, or 9 in total, and then comes time, 1, or back and forth, 2 which together becomes a total of 10 or 11 dimensions depending on time. In mathematics however, there is really no limit to the amount of dimensions you can define. Acceleration can be dealt with as a dimension for instance.