Battle For Strategic Mariupol Begins, NATO Vows To Do "Whatever It Takes"

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ukraine is not a member of NATO. As a few others pointed out he is referring to Russian aggression against NATO members.

Where has Russia threatened anyone from NATO?

Huh.. so now social media is accepted as a reliable source of information?

Oh sure, the State Department uses it all the time. So does everyone else playing in the quagmire of geopolitics.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Melbourne_Militia



You also have to take in the equation the promises made to Russia of NATO not expanding towards Russia. Russia`s thread of annexing Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is a direct result of that expansion. The west was warned about what would happen if they tried to make Ukraine a puppet-state of the West.



Russia doesn`t trust the West, because they think they follow The Grand Chessboard (confirmed by one of Putin`s main advisers).

the difference in this NATO promise to Russia is NATO never signed that on paper as far as I know whereas with Ukraine, all parties did.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Melbourne_Militia

You also have to take in the equation the promises made to Russia of NATO not expanding towards Russia. Russia`s thread of annexing Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is a direct result of that expansion.

This never happened and the fact you keep repeating still does not make it true.

iIf you spent the time to research you would see Germany, Helemt Kohl, made guarantees to Gorbachev about NATO. Germany does not speak for the entire alliance and did not consult NATO when he made the promise.

Gorbachev commented about this issue to George Bush (Senior).

NATO, nor the US or any other NATO nation aside from GErmany ever made a promise not to expand NATO east.

You keep thinking it`s important how you see it, no it`s not, it`s how the Russians are seeing it, that`s the only thing that`s important...and no matter how much you post about how you want it to let it look like...you won`t change the minds of The Kremlin about it !

“When NATO troops are approaching our borders, of course, we develop a plan,” said Ordzhonikidze. “It is a threat when troops are being stationed next to your border. I recall NATO’s commitment not to expand the bloc’s territory eastward … All that remains to us is to somehow oppose this expansion of NATO.”

In separate comments, Russian Security Council deputy secretary Mikhail Popov told RIA Novosti that in response to NATO’s push to expand, plans are now underway to make changes to Russia’s military doctrine “triggered by geopolitical factors, including NATO’s activities next to Russian borders and the situation in Ukraine.”

www.mintpressnews.com...

originally posted by: Dolby_X
So now Germany pomise it NATO is bound to do it since any move near Russia is against the promise ?

Do you bother to read posts or just only see what you want?

Germany made the promise to Gorbachev about NATO and eastward expansion. At no Point did NATO, the US, or any other NATO country make the promise. just Germany, who was not authorized to speak for all NATO members.

originally posted by: Melbourne_Militia

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Melbourne_Militia



You also have to take in the equation the promises made to Russia of NATO not expanding towards Russia. Russia`s thread of annexing Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is a direct result of that expansion. The west was warned about what would happen if they tried to make Ukraine a puppet-state of the West.



Russia doesn`t trust the West, because they think they follow The Grand Chessboard (confirmed by one of Putin`s main advisers).

the difference in this NATO promise to Russia is NATO never signed that on paper as far as I know whereas with Ukraine, all parties did.

It doesn`t matter, see my last post.

originally posted by: Bassago
Where has Russia threatened anyone from NATO?[/qoute]

Your going to play this idiotic game also?

What part of NATO stating they would fend themselves if Russia came at NATO like they have Ukraine are you not understanding?

Secondly Russia is the one mouthing off about his nuclear weapons.

originally posted by: Bassago
Oh sure, the State Department uses it all the time. So does everyone else playing in the quagmire of geopolitics.

[/qoute]

Right, but a lot of Pro Russians have stated time and again that social media is not reliable, especially when it shows russian soldiers inside Ukraine, or reports on russian military supports (weapon / tanks / etc) moving from Russia into ukraine.

Just establishing the double standard pro russians have on this issue.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And Gorbachev had already discussed how he felt like he was tricked but acknowledged his error on the agreement and not checking with everyone in NATO about it.

So its not relevant what current Russians think, because they have been lied to by putin and his government.

There was no promise / agreement by NATO not to expand east.

You trying to ignore it / downplay it, like you did in the other thread with russian military aid crossing the border, is a problem.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And Gorbachev had already discussed how he felt like he was tricked but acknowledged his error on the agreement and not checking with everyone in NATO about it.

So its not relevant what current Russians think, because they have been lied to by putin and his government.

There was no promise / agreement by NATO not to expand east.

You trying to ignore it / downplay it, like you did in the other thread with russian military aid crossing the border, is a problem.

Come on, you do know others are also reading this don`t you ?

Enough laughter for one day, it`s pretty late over here...my advice to you get some rest too, and try again with some more sleep.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Your going to play this idiotic game also?

I'm not into games.

What part of NATO stating they would fend themselves if Russia came at NATO like they have Ukraine are you not understanding?

I repeat where has Russia threatened anyone in NATO?

Secondly Russia is the one mouthing off about his nuclear weapons.

Irrelevant though I can't blame them considering what's been happening.

I remember in mid 90s, a joint conference between Clinton and Yeltsin, NATO expansion eastwards was objected by the Russians. However, Clinton responded that while it can be a cause of worry for Russia, but Kremlin would not be allowed to VETO any expansion.

To this Yeltsin team responded that continuous expansion eastwards would result in transformation from the end of Cold War to the start of Cold Peace.

Russia only objected verbally till the time prospects of NATO expansion reached its "near abroad". Then Russia acted in Georgia 2008 and now Ukraine 2014.

It seems instead of Cold Peace the matters have further inflated to Hot Peace. That is very dangerous.

While Sovereign nation logic supporters would say Russia has not right to object independent nations wanting to join NATO.

That sound fine only till the time we take into consideration as to who is Russia and what geopolitical levers it can pull on the world via itself and also combined with allies. What geopolitical levers did US pull during the Cuba crisis in 1962 and what were the dangers of one side not backing down?

End result is, Russia is not going to back down on "near abroad" in NATO scenario. It is only upto the West to decide how much push they want to throw in certain direction and how many civilians they want to hurt via their efforts in "geopolitical adventurism".

"Near Abroad" nations who have not yet learned lessons from Georgia and now carnage of civic societies in Ukraine, will face the similar fate if they decide towards "fake glitter and glory" of joining NATO and in process becoming a prey to social/economic/political destitution for all of their peoples.

Poroshenko took WRONG and EGOIST decisions many times since he came to power. Now he is begging for a ceasefire.

6 of his brigades are DESTROYED
3 are BADLY BATTERED
3 are CURRENTLY ENCIRCLED
1 yes ONLY 1 is currently BATTLEWORTHY

acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com...

Porky Poro bombed the civilians with relish and brutality. And now he WILL lose half of his country and will only have repentence and shame to show his arrogance upon.

a reply to: victor7

End result is, Russia is not going to back down on "near abroad" in NATO scenario.

And that is what this whole mess ultimately boils down to. In case anyone wonders what the US did in a similar situation they need look no farther than the Cuban missile crisis.

a reply to: Xcathdra

he was tricked.
and germans weren't the only ones thinking that nato shouldn't expand further to the east. and - surprise surprise - they didn't want it to expand because they knew russia would react, sooner or later.

but sure, the fact that nato did whatever it takes to make the impression on russia that it won't expand any further, should be ignored. lets downplay the whole thing, after all that's what politics are about. lies, right?

www.spiegel.de...

a reply to: jedi_hamster

No he was not. He took Germany at its word instead of ensuring the position was something Germany could guarantee.

Gorbachev did not do this. There was nothing, no offer, agreement, treaty, etc that prevented NATO from expanding East.

For which nations were tricked, that would be East Germany and all the other eastern European nations under soviet occupation after WWII where the USSR agreed to allow them to elect their own governments followed by Soviet withdraw. To bad that never happened back then. Of course now that is has those nations want nothing to do with Russia anymore.

Something Russia is not understanding.

a reply to: Xcathdra

There was nothing, no offer, agreement, treaty, etc that prevented NATO from expanding East.

There was verbal agreement but everyone knows you cannot trust any US Secretary of State, especially James Baker. Or any of his successor's either apparently but as you say there is nothing in "writing."

Why do people seem to now get upset when NATO is pushing up against Russia's doorstep and Russia pushes back. I submit if a person's and government's word isn't good enough then neither is a scrap of paper with their names scrawled on it. Everyone knows that treaties only last as long as they're expedient to the signatories anyway.

well let go back to the killing ...

twitter.com...

BBC correspondent in Ukraine @fergalkeane47 says hearing sustained shelling for last hour in #Mariupol

a reply to: Bassago

There was no agreements with the US and USSR regarding NATO. It was Germany.


ETA -
Rebels Subject Civilians to Forced Labor

Punishment Brigades’ Put in Danger, Abused

(Berlin) – Insurgent forces are detaining civilians on allegations of violating public order and then subjecting them to forced labor. Rebels appear to be using public order infractions as a pretext to obtain unpaid labor.

In some cases, the members of these “punishment brigades” are beaten or subjected to other cruel and degrading treatment. In several cases Human Rights Watch documented, civilians were forced to work at checkpoints near front lines, where they were at risk of attacks by Ukrainian government forces.

“Rebels in eastern Ukraine need to stop forcing people into labor brigades and stop exposing them to dangers of the front lines,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “Both are serious violations of the laws of war.”

In Donetsk in mid-August, Human Rights Watch interviewed several victims of forced labor and relatives of victims, as well as an insurgent fighter. All said that people detained for alleged public drinking, breaking the curfew, unlawful use of drugs, and other minor infractions could be put into “punishment brigades” for up to 30 days. On several occasions, Human Rights Watch also observed men in civilian clothing working in “punishment brigades” at checkpoints near Donetsk.

In two cases, the civilians were subjected to forced labor because they had been drinking beer in public.

“Punishment brigades” carry out numerous manual tasks, such as filling sandbags at checkpoints, clearing brush, digging trenches, and working as kitchen help. The former captives interviewed by Human Rights said they worked close to the front lines and described their work as “dangerous.” The former captives and family members of other captives told Human Rights Watch that “punishment brigades” were widespread in the region and that insurgents threatened to kill those who did not cooperate.

The findings are consistent with an early August New York Times report in which an insurgent commander at a checkpoint acknowledged that all of the people in the brigade under his supervision had been sentenced to 15 days of forced labor as a punishment for causing “some harm to society.”

An insurgent fighter who wished to remain anonymous told Human Rights Watch that the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) typically hands out between one and four weeks of “corrective labor” as punishment for minor infractions that require no military court review. He also said that people suspected of serious crimes are sometimes forced to dig trenches, clean military bases, and carry out manual tasks at checkpoints. Working for the benefit of DPR, he said, is a “way for them to expiate their guilt.” Several pro-Ukrainian activists who were tortured by insurgents in detention alsotold Human Rights Watch that their captors forced them to work.

“Forced labor is just one of many serious abuses that rebels in eastern Ukraine impose on their captives,” Williamson said.

On the other side -

International humanitarian law does permit parties to the conflict, in limited circumstances, to impose some compulsory labor on civilians. However, it cannot be abusive and should be compensated, nor can the work relate directly to the conduct of military operations. This applies whether the civilians are in detention or not.

Click link for remainder of article.

Also, as I have stated time and again about NATO members -

RIA Novosti ‏@ria_novosti 58m
Rasmussen: #NATO is not involved in member states' decisions regarding military aid to Ukraine http://(link tracking not allowed)/Wj2w6r

While the NATO organization can be prevented from being involved by one member vetoing any vote to do so, individual nations are able to send assistance.

a reply to: Xcathdra


Well right now Poland is going to play a key role if fighting were to start between Nato and Russia. Russia has been trying to upgrade its Nuclear arsenal while Nato members have been boosting conventional armed forces. There is a reason for this Russia relies heavily on the mobile Topol-M missile systems but they are vulnerable to conventional strikes; their mobility is no longer a guarantee of concealment or protection. So if this were to go down your going to see an all out assault on Russian nuclear arsenal. It would be planned assault to occur all at once with the goal of knocking out at least 50 percent of there capabilities and rely on missile defense systems and also Russia will havea large failure rate of the nuclear arsenal. Saw one estimate as high as 25 percent of it nuclear force is still in disrapair from neglect. Wont happen however but i would say Russia will become uninhabitable. because most of the US arsenal would get through.

Russia cant survive a nuclear exchange where Nato countries would have survivors. But your still talking huge casualties and nuclear winter.I used to think Putin was smart enough to not play out this scenario, Lately watching his actions and words who knows i really think hes losing it. So when Ukraine started i wassaying nuclear war never happen, but now ill say not likely but Putin is showing to be unstable much like Hitler was towards the end of WW2 .

a reply to: Xcathdra

During war time everyone needs to pitch in. For criminal infractions in the society they pay back by the community service. No big deal.

Putting civilians on the checkpoints is however wrong practice which should be stopped.

3/4th of 1 Million people in Donetsk have fled the city. Still 2500 have died out of shelling by Fascist Junta forces. Wonder what would have been the numbers if 3/4th of the population had stayed.

Did not hear from western leaders or media on this EVIL issue.

Best would be for rebels to send some fighters in West Ukraine and they kills few dozens in retaliation. That works most of the times.

Btw, Fascist Poro will use cease fire to re-arm and re-group. Rebels should NOT go for the cease fire at all.

a reply to: victor7

Best would be for rebels to send some fighters in West Ukraine and they kills few dozens in retaliation. That works most of the times.

You really can't be serious with this comment?

So now your advocating terrorism in west Ukraine and calling for murder...Astonishing!

Btw, Fascist Poro will use cease fire to re-arm and re-group. Rebels should NOT go for the cease fire at all.

Just like Russia used the humanitarian aid ruse to supply the separatists...but that didn't happen right?

Too bad as they are the ones who are asking for a cease fire and say they want to keep Ukraine together as a whole, but you and most of the pro Russian supporters seem to want to deny that fact.

The only one wanting to keep this going is Putin.

www.abovetopsecret.com...