I learned something new about Islam

I enjoy watching debates between atheists and religious folks. Some of my favorites are Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss debating Muslims.

But one thing always seemed to get passed over without enough explanation. One of Dawkins' favorite questions is "What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?" It always just seemed to be death. I always thought that was weird and wondered what the book actually said and how normal everyday Muslims feel about it.

Turns out it's a bit more complicated than simply the death penalty. If you leave Islam in a country under sharia law, you are only actually given the death penalty if you then fight against Islam. Very similar to many other countries penalty for treason, though there is the religious overtone. It isn't just an automatic death penalty simply for leaving the faith. The book actually says you are free to believe or not believe.

I still think religious people are delusional and that religion overall does more harm than good. But I'm glad you aren't actually jihaded or fatwa'd just for deciding Islam isn't for you.

a reply to: ZeroReady

Surely there are so many different interpretations of Islam that you couldn't be sure you were safe. It seems to me to be the biggest beard and shouter that gets the vote from the silent majority.

Islam reminds me of what I read about Christianity some 500 odd years ago.

What is tragic is that somewhere in the late teens, many seem to suddenly need religion to help them transit childhood to full adulthood and these are the ones that seem to get radicalised.

I do believe that no religion should be taught to any child before the formative years are over as only then can many people are mature enough to make up their free minds about religion. Teaching religion at the formative years is brain conditioning to accept and not question, which robs a person of their own free will.

I hope we are coming to the slow end of religion in the world because it does more evil than good for the world and provies a living for extremist and immature men who love to wear frocks and adopt pious attitudes through their garb. If you ask many serving at the alter why are you ringing bells at certain times, they haven't a clue - which says it all to me?

a reply to: ZeroReady

Religion™ is for people afraid of Hell. I just wished they paid their taxes so 'The Church™' can handle charity (a Churches function) and then can become separate of Gov't. who is currently in charge of 'charity' If they are not going to do 'their job' why do they continue to enjoy tax free status?

That is like having the Department of Defense doing the Dep't. of Offense's job.. This is why George W. Bush did more to 'protect' the U.S. during Vietnam and He never left Texas airspace...

I really enjoy learning about religion without it being shoved down my throat. I'm tired of people that don't understand the history of their religion and just want to preach the book.

The things I've been reading the church has done throughout history to further the grasp for power really calls into question all that it stands for.

Organized religion isn't good for anyone. Separation of church and state seem to be a thing of the past as well. My oldest likes to read my books, if he brings certain books to school his teachers get offended or try to tell him its not appropriate for school.

If a 13 year old is actually reading philosophy or a book explaining ALL the religions you would think that would be praised, not suppressed.

Churchianity has taken over this world and gots not for the benefit of us.

I think people misuse religious texts as a front for their own prejudice. Bible says very little about homosexuals, but Christians are homophobic. Bible says a lot about not sleeping with a woman during menstruation, punishable by stoning, yet people ignore that rule as it is incongruent with the beliefs that they have adopted from their community.

Same with apostasy and female genital mutilation in Islam, these are more social rules not religious. But people tend to categorize memory and often rules become part of a religious discourse and people in positions of power use their language to socially construct law, they do this under the religious banner. I often find people who have strong religious views are not often the most well read. And, often you find that ultra prejudice view within religious context within illiterate populations (Middle East, Central America etc etc).

These views are then reinforced in Pavlovian , Group Psychology methods. ie. Go against the group ideals even if they are wrong, get punished by that group. Get punished for behaviour X reinforces behaviour Y.

Many misconceptions about Islam are quite easily explained such as the OP...

Sharia is one...
Jihad is the major one recently!

Hopefully this thread becomes an all round learning curve, respecting the OP's wish to learn about these misconceptions!


Richard Dawkins should stick to what he knows IMO, such as science and the flaws of Christianity...
If he wants to read the Quran and then discuss Islam fair play, but like most who lambast Muslims even across this board...
I'd bet that less than 5% have actually read the Quran while the other 95% here "learned" from Fox or answeringIslam.com...
Both terrible sources for anyone who truly wants to deny ignorance!

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: ZeroReady

Religion™ is for people afraid of Hell.

or
An alternative opinion could be they love God and what He stands for, mercy, justice and love.

But your way is more suited to creating an us and them mentality, so go right ahead.

I also hope you pay your taxes, and give money to charity.
I understand why you are angry about the greed and selfishness of some churches. You should be glad that God will see a fair and righteous judgement made against the people who abuse their power.
I will.

a reply to: ZeroReady

What is being seen in the world today and what is actually taught in the Qu'ran are two completely different things. Your right though, the only time a Muslim can justify violence or war is when someone has used violence or an act of war against them. Around that there is no justification for killing anyone.. When you look at it like that it's not hard to see that Islam has been corrupted just like the Western religion...

When I say corrupted I don't mean the Qu'ran itself but the ridiculous man made interpretations which are an insult to that book.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

You can't actually read the Qu'ran that means spoken. When its written it has another name. You can read about the Qu'ran.

a reply to: Shiloh7

The same case could be made for Democracy and Royalty... Do we start eradicating these two because of the atrocities they are associated with which do include using religion as a scapegoat in some instances also?

a reply to: Iamthatbish

Not to sound pedantic, but not necessarily!!!

Origin

from Arabic qur'ān ‘recitation’, from qara'a ‘read, recite’.


The Quran can be read!
It's what every Muslim does...
Some can recite it back to front... These people would write more copies of the Quran, usually Imams!

I'm wondering about how groups like ISIS/IS and Hamas, etc. reconcile the killing of entire groups...
as proxy deaths for an unpopular government or aggressive government actions - does that mean ALL PEOPLE who are governed by said government are open game?

What the hell did James Foley do??? He was a photojournalist! He's not Obama.
Although the executioner said, "This is because of you, Obama" (paraphrasing), how does that, in his mind, justify the beheading of an INNOCENT MAN?

I do realize those people aren't true to Islam, but they apparently THINK they are. I just don't understand it.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Iamthatbish

Not to sound pedantic, but not necessarily!!!

Origin

from Arabic qur'ān ‘recitation’, from qara'a ‘read, recite’.


The Quran can be read!
It's what every Muslim does...
Some can recite it back to front... These people would write more copies of the Quran, usually Imams!

Imams are usually the ones inciting violence too, and they are the ones who memorized the quran better than the sheep sent to slaughter.

Congressional testimony suggests that 80% of the Mosques in the United States are controlled by radical imams.

Then there is Memphis imam Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi, above, Dean of Academic Affairs at the Al-Maghrib Institute, who was taped last October saying that Jews and Christians are filthy polytheists and that their lives and property can be taken in jihad by the Muslims.

Source

I can't remember what library book I read it in, it also said the original documented qu'ran was written by Mohammad's son in law and was not viewed with joy because of the view it wasn't intended to be written down. Then much later tptb in Islam decided it needed to be written down and did their own editing at that point.

For a person like myself that doesn't believe in censorship or suppression of information I found it interesting that all three Abrahamic religions have been guilty of it.

It helps me confirm my view that religion is simply a means to control the masses.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

*Swivels on a chair stroking a cat*
Hello Tinfoil, I was expecting you...

Imams are usually the ones inciting violence too, and they are the ones who memorized the quran better than the sheep sent to slaughter.

I don't deal with "suggestion"...
Especially as congress is hardly credible in recent years...

The Imam you quoted is a radical however... But that's why we need better imams than him to reach the spotlight...
If you only ever hear from radical imams in MSM while they purposefully ignore the true leaders and teachers I'm not surprised you have such a view on Islam...

I wouldn't let such imams represent me personally!

Now lets see what the Sufi say about Jihad.

The word Jihad is from the Arabic root word JHD that basically means striving or struggle. The question is striving for what or a struggle for what? The struggle is of two types—one inner and one outer. Both have the same purpose which is to change the status quo—a status which is not in line with God’s will or not in line with nature as such, a status which causes unrest and disturbance.

Thus, if there is an evil temptation for wrongdoing and we struggle very hard to overcome that temptation, it is striving in the cause of God and is considered one of the best forms of Jihad. Thus, if there is a tyrant ruler who is oppressing people and one stands up to that tyrant and says a word of truth against his rule it is also one form of Jihad. In Sufi tradition, the self is the enemy and conquering the self is overpowering the enemy and one of the best forms of Jihad.

sufismjournal.org...

There are peaceful Muslim in the world that are both Sunni/Shia/Sufi. Rumi the Sufi mystic is sometimes used as an example when showing example of the peaceful non-dualistic en-lighten-ed one.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

I've also read that Sufis are considered apostates by other sects. I wonder if that's true. It seems to me they are the most peaceful of the bunch.

a reply to: borntowatch

The full quote, which I paraphrased comes from the Sioux Nation. The second part reads "Spirituality" is for people who've already been" (This I'd opine after sanctimonious "Christians" came, took their land and lied to them.. I'd go with these folks way before siding with The Settler..)

I take full responsibility and apologize if You think My intention is to 'separate any from 'The Source' of ALL there is, the One Infinite Creator.

Angry? Who is 'angry'? Anger is a wasted emotion like jealousy. Part of 'My Epiphany' was release of worry of things I can't control, the attachment in having to "be in charge" I let go and let God.

I Will forgive You for pre-judging My mood.

I will.

I wonder what plan the peacful muslims have to overcome leaders like this is? Whatever the plan is for the peace lovers they are losing more than the battle they are losing their religion and the respect they will need to survive.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

But this isn't much different than medieval church practice where the priest would have the mass memorized in Latin and no one, sometimes not even the priest, would understand it. Islam isn't in a much different place now. You have Imams who know more about what they are preaching from or at least have it memorized and a barely literate to illiterate populace who don't know what they're hearing from the book itself but have to take the word of the Imam for it.