Yeah - Capitalism

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: sheepslayer247

Sounds "Authoritatively" cozy.

How would you handle the "Individualists" ?

I don't see why an individualist could not thrive in the sort of government I describe.

Or perhaps you expected me to say that we will drag them in to the town square and have them killed by having the Shriners run over them multiple times with their little, yet deadly, parade cars? That's what a commie would do, right?

a reply to: FyreByrd

I grew up wanting capitalism to be workable not only because it was the system I was born into but because I believed during my youth that 'greed' was the only motivation that could get anything done.

I looked into Communism as it was in the days of active 'revolutionary' movements and found it wanting in that all 'revolvutions' that I had seen, up until let's say about 1990 harshly and violently suppressed any and all dissent.

So then I looked at the 'Social Democracies" of the world, those seemed to strike a good balance as our British posters have noted. But in the last 10 - 15 years, even the social democracies seem to be in decline.

I learned and read more and more about general systems, learned about reinforcing loops (for good and bad) and started to see the 'organizing principal' of our dominat economic system (as point out by Fritof Capra in "The Web of Life" which is an ever narrowing spiral of CAPITAL flowing into a single pot (the game of Monopoly demonstrates this principal).

I no longer believe greed is the only reliable motivator of people. I think compassion, learning, art, family are all more powerful motivators but the reality of our system is that all those things require that basic survival needs be met and the capitalist system guarantees that the majorty of people will not have those needs met (and I speak on a global basis - not a local one).

Capitalism ensures that eventually only one person will 'win the game' and all others are losers.

Why can't I be an anti-captialist without being a communist?

There are movement's, most notibly, in South American where socailist/communist/collective ideals are being tried without harse supression of dissent. Where dissent is acknowledged as an intregal part of 'progress'. I'm just learning about these experiments and hope for many more. We need new systems, perhaps this BRIC bank will break open something.

But I do think we are living through the death throws of Capitalism.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: sheepslayer247

Sounds "Authoritatively" cozy.

How would you handle the "Individualists" ?

I don't see why an individualist could not thrive in the sort of government I describe.

Or perhaps you expected me to say that we will drag them in to the town square and have them killed by having the Shriners run over them multiple times with their little, yet deadly, parade cars? That's what a commie would do, right?

My God. Why jump to herky-jerky palpitating fibrillating conclusions ?

Now I can't support your ideal in general for fear of the oppressions that may ensue.

But yes, an Individualist can easily survive your system.



Authority is easy to dodge if one knows how

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Oh. Now you want fair?

Gimme your money, make it "fair". (I jest)

Fairness is arbitrary. Fairness is usually brought up when someone has more than another and it isn't "fair".

Fair enough

What about moral *sigh*... that probably won't work either. Damn it. We are not THAT bad, are we?

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Morality?

Sure, bring that into economic systems.

I make more than some, less than others.

Is that moral?

originally posted by: grainofsand
I am self-employed due to capitalism. I am pleased about that, and the same opportunities are available for my fellow citizens in the UK if they have the motivation.
Which system would you prefer OP? Communism?!

THere is considerable entrepreneurship in communist/socialist countries. Look at Cuba, look at Scadanavian countries, look at South American and China. I would almost dare to say that the opportunities are more available in countries with social safetly nets that allow people to survive and (note the AND) work on their dreams.

I refer to the following article in INC magazine:

www.inc.com...

about how socialism supports business innovation.

Norway is also full of entrepreneurs like Wiggo Dalmo. Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium. A 2010 study released by the U.S. Small Business Administration reported a similar result: Although America remains near the top of the world in terms of entrepreneurial aspirations -- that is, the percentage of people who want to start new things—in terms of actual start-up activity, our country has fallen behind not just Norway but also Canada, Denmark, and Switzerland.

Welcome to Norway, where business is radically transparent, militantly egalitarian, and, of course, heavily taxed. This is socialism, the sort of thing your average American CEO has nightmares about. But not Dalmo—and not most Norwegians. "The capitalist system functions well," Dalmo says. "But I'm a socialist in my bones."

I was still in my Social Democrat phase went I first read this article awaiting for an accountant. LOL

But there is precious little evidence to suggest that our low taxes have done much for entrepreneurs—or even for the economy as a whole. "It's actually quite hard to say how tax policy affects the economy," says Joel Slemrod, a University of Michigan professor who served on the Council of Economic Advisers under Ronald Reagan. Slemrod says there is no statistical evidence to prove that low taxes result in economic prosperity. Some of the most prosperous countries—for instance, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, and, yes, Norway—also have some of the highest taxes. Norway, which in 2009 had the world's highest per-capita income, avoided the brunt of the financial crisis: From 2006 to 2009, its economy grew nearly 3 percent. The American economy grew less than one-tenth of a percent during the same period. Meanwhile, countries with some of the lowest taxes in Europe, like Ireland, Iceland, and Estonia, have suffered profoundly. The first two nearly went bankrupt; Estonia, the darling of antitax groups like the Cato Institute, currently has an unemployment rate of 16 percent. Its economy shrank 14 percent in 2009.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: MALBOSIA

I'm going to paraphrase Winston Churchill.

Capitalism is the worst style of economics, until you compare it to everything else.

I can't argue that, but...

If we are talking about creating a better system I think we could shape it better through communism or socialism than capitalism. Too many individual interests at stake in capitalism and your right the American constitution would never allow it.

Communism and socialism ignore or inhibit individuality. I like individuality. I am a cantankerous old fart. I like it that way.

what should we do Beezer? Im not challenging you but if you could imagine something better, what would it be?

Honest answer? Dunno. I'd have to give that some thought.

I wouldn't do away with individuality neither. Of course we want minds to thrive but how do allow fair access to resources to all those minds. Otherwise too many good ideas will never come to light. Your best chance right now is an invitation to 'Dragons Den'. We are turning Quentin Tarantino movie. A bad one.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: sheepslayer247

How much is it going to cost me? (beezzer pulls out his check book)

This glorious people's republic of. . . what?

How will you pay for all this "free" stuff?

Quite a bit, I'm afraid. But consider the surplus if we (as in the USA) stopped invading other coutries and attended to our own business? Wonder just what we could do.

a reply to: FyreByrd



When was the last time the government said, "Oh wow! We have waaaay too much money. Here. Have some back."

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: sheepslayer247

Communism falls into the same trap as other ideologies that are intrinsically linked to heterodox economic theory that does not accurately model human behavior. The people who fought for communism in the early part of the 20th century didn't do so because they wanted to live in a society oppressed by a totalitarian state. Their intentions were good and unfortunately they were wrong.

Sorry, I couldn't get past the first paragraph. Had to look up heterodox economic theories which happen to be any theory that isn't neo-classical liberal.

And so are the capitalists.

A very narrow group of people are assuming that everyone else is like them and 'model' the world based on that assumption. It's innaccurate.

This is a case of Main Stream discounting dissenting voices (a trait of authoritarian systems).

a reply to: xuenchen

It was an attempt at humor, although a weak one.

Apologies all around.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

lolz

All through your posts, I kept hearing that Coke commercial. . . I'd like to buy the world a coke, and keep it companeeee. . .

greed will always undermine and corrupt any system that allows, if not encourages it.

and capitalism is a fancy spelling of greed.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4
greed will always undermine and corrupt any system that allows, if not encourages it.

and capitalism is a fancy spelling of greed.

The "p" is silent.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: beezzer

Good questions.

This glorious people's republic of. . . what?

I would prefer it to be called The Almighty Dictatorship of Sheepslayer!

No, No, No, It must be the Divine and Benevolent Domain of FyreBryd - LOL

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: sheepslayer247

When you remove profit, set artificial standards, take away the ability to earn on your own, you end up with housing projects.

I'll refer you to an article I mentioned earlier that shows this is not necessarily the case. The case of Norway.

www.inc.com...

It's a rather long article but well balanced showing both sides of the argument and how they are playing out in the country. But you will find that your statement of 'housing projects' is hardly accurate.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Would that style of economy fit in with the structure around the Constitution or the Bill of Rights?

originally posted by: MALBOSIA


Say the country is a village of 10 people. They need money to trade. A bank opens and lends everyone 100 dollars to get started but they want 5% return on the loan. So $1000 dollars is in the economy split between 10 people. Problem is the bank wants $1050 back from all the borrowers in total. There is only $1000 in the economy.... so someone is going to default on their loan and now they either work for the bank or give up assets.

And the set-up for the classic board game Monolopy.

One such story is that of the origins of the most popular board game in modern history. It's an American classic: each new generation of Monopoly players learns to love (harmlessly) indulging its cutthroat, ruthless, greedy impulses. Players begin the game as equals. Luck — and a bit of strategy — eventually enables one player to dominate all others. That player ends up amassing a huge fortune in cash and real estate.

www.henrygeorge.org...

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Show me an actual system where government has taken care of food, shelter, healthcare and has succeeded.

Show me a system that will work for the large and varied population of the US.

Show me a system that can provide all of that and still maintain within the framework of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

Scandanavian countries, Northern European countries, Japan (though it's failing). New Zealand and to a lesser and declining degree Autralia.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: MALBOSIA
So you enjoy the benefits of a high-paying career in a capitalist society but whinge about the system that provides the fremework for your chilled life?
Sorry, but I just don't get that.

It is possible mind you that one can think of others and others lives. In fact I believe it key in being truly human.