Hamas kills 11 suspected informers for Israel

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: boncho

Yeah.. leveling a city block. Probably bad intel.

I have just one question, without out all of the rhetoric, without all of the they killed, mothers, daughters, sons, teachers whatever. Just one simple question without diverting to who occupies what, gas, oil, whatever. No propaganda, no shills, no supporters on either side, no bias.

Let me ask it this way would all the killing on both sides, NVM the numbers, the shields, forget the past, lets talk tomorrow would it end with the end of rockets? Thats it simple enough, no ups, no extras, no extraneous comments, just a simple question.

Over the 5 years I've lived in Israel, when Hamas is not launching rockets, Israel pretty much leaves Gaza alone. They don't just randomly drop bombs on Gaza for no reason.

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: boncho

Yeah.. leveling a city block. Probably bad intel.

I have just one question, without out all of the rhetoric, without all of the they killed, mothers, daughters, sons, teachers whatever. Just one simple question without diverting to who occupies what, gas, oil, whatever. No propaganda, no shills, no supporters on either side, no bias.

Let me ask it this way would all the killing on both sides, NVM the numbers, the shields, forget the past, lets talk tomorrow would it end with the end of rockets? Thats it simple enough, no ups, no extras, no extraneous comments, just a simple question.

Over the 5 years I've lived in Israel, when Hamas is not launching rockets, Israel pretty much leaves Gaza alone. They don't just randomly drop bombs on Gaza for no reason.

oh is that what they've been telling you?

is it the people from TV; those who stare and rarely blink, often repeating keywords?

you've lived in Israel and they told you IDF is exactly that - Israeli DEFENSE force, only and strictly defending?

they told you people who they attack are "bad guys"?

sorry to burst your bubble of "being informed" but every country, society in the world does pretty much the same: tell a story of "defending" their "people" against "evil enemy".

from North Korea, USA, Palestine, Israel, Russia, you name it.

so what did the TV actually say?

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

It's true. I posted a thread (tons of hate and Israel shills obliterated it though) about Israel using human shields. They built the kibbutz around Gaza as a human wall to make sure Gaza couldn't spread. The thread even had an Israeli born and raised in a kibbutz discussing how the soldiers would come, uninvited, to their Israeli villages when they drew back from the border and they brought their heavy weapons there. So Israel actually used human shields and it's documented unlike the lie from Israel that Hamas uses them.

Most of the kibbutzim have been in the area for 60+ years, some even before Israel was established...

Kfar Aza established in August 1951 by immigrants from Egypt and the Moroccan city of Tangiers
Magen established by immigrants from Romania on 16 August 1949
Kissufim established in 1951
Nirim established in June 1946
And a little more recent, Kerem Shalom was founded in 1967 adjacent to the triborder area by members of Hashomer Hatzair. Its name includes the word shalom since the members believed that the location would play a role in establishing peace and ending the Arab-Israeli conflict. This one really sounds like a group that wants to keep the Palestinians down...

Kibbutizm are by and large just farming communities with populations numbering in the double digits up to a few hundred people - not really in any position to have any impact on 1.5+ million Palestinians in Gaza.

As to the IDF using people in the kibbutzim surrounding Gaza as human shields, you mean the people that are already under constant attack from Gaza? Do you think the presence of Israeli civilians near the IDF would in any way deter Hamas from attacking? Especially since they've been attacking these people all along... That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - and that's why your thread was as you say, "obliterated" - because it fails the common sense logic test. Unless you are suggesting that the IDF are literally holding kibbutzniks in front of them when Hamas is attacking - which is also just as ludicrous.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

It's true. I posted a thread (tons of hate and Israel shills obliterated it though) about Israel using human shields. They built the kibbutz around Gaza as a human wall to make sure Gaza couldn't spread. The thread even had an Israeli born and raised in a kibbutz discussing how the soldiers would come, uninvited, to their Israeli villages when they drew back from the border and they brought their heavy weapons there. So Israel actually used human shields and it's documented unlike the lie from Israel that Hamas uses them.

And a good thread it was too. I would urge people to read that and other information from multiple sources from documentaries to op-ed to investigative on the round journalism to gain a full picture of all sides of the conflict.

What I posted here as my OP is just one side and one piece of the jigsaw that goes back over half a century.

originally posted by: demus

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: boncho

Yeah.. leveling a city block. Probably bad intel.

I have just one question, without out all of the rhetoric, without all of the they killed, mothers, daughters, sons, teachers whatever. Just one simple question without diverting to who occupies what, gas, oil, whatever. No propaganda, no shills, no supporters on either side, no bias.

Let me ask it this way would all the killing on both sides, NVM the numbers, the shields, forget the past, lets talk tomorrow would it end with the end of rockets? Thats it simple enough, no ups, no extras, no extraneous comments, just a simple question.

Over the 5 years I've lived in Israel, when Hamas is not launching rockets, Israel pretty much leaves Gaza alone. They don't just randomly drop bombs on Gaza for no reason.

oh is that what they've been telling you?

is it the people from TV; those who stare and rarely blink, often repeating keywords?

you've lived in Israel and they told you IDF is exactly that - Israeli DEFENSE force, only and strictly defending?

they told you people who they attack are "bad guys"?

sorry to burst your bubble of "being informed" but every country, society in the world does pretty much the same: tell a story of "defending" their "people" against "evil enemy".

from North Korea, USA, Palestine, Israel, Russia, you name it.

so what did the TV actually say?

I don't need anyone on TV to tell me when Gaza is being hit because I live just a few miles away. (And I don't even watch Israeli news since my Hebrew is not so good) I can hear/see the planes and helicopters flying past my apartment on the way to Gaza, and I can hear the explosions when Gaza is being hit - it's very obvious... When Israel has calm, so does Gaza.

You can try to discount my actual first hand experience here, but what better evidence do you provide?

a reply to: CommandoJoe

If you count forcing people to live in an open air prison, constrict the flow of medical equipment and medicine in and out along with other necessary supplies, disallow Gazan's to trade with Israeli's but allow Israel's to trade with Palestinians meaning that Gazan's can only sell goods inside of the prison whilst you live on land that on the best part was stolen, plus many other inhumane tactics of oppression....... then yeah, you pretty much leave Gaza alone!

Do you also leave farms and olive groves around the West Bank alone or do Israeli's force Palestian's off the land they have tended to for many many generations, abuse them and destroy their land and build on it leaving them homeless as has been documented and covered up by the Israeli government more times than I care to remember?

I would suggest that people living OUTSIDE of Israel will know better what is actually happening in Israel and Palestine as our media will be a little bit less biased. We all know around the world that inside Israel it is at least deeply frowned upon to criticise and publicise the actions of the government. Just look at the torrent of abuse, death threats and loss of work the few Israeli journalists that have tried to show the truth have received. Or perhaps the anti-war protester that were protesting peacefully but were attacked and chased through the streets and beaten for daring to seek the truth........ those alone should be enough to tell you to dig much further than Israeli, American or Zionist sympathetic mass media are currently.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

your first hand experience is just that: first hand experience.

your first hand experience from Israel is not evidence.

your first hand experience is limited by your own immediate surroundings and understandings and availability to information.

also it interesting to note that you said:

Gaza is being hit

planes and helicopters flying... ...on the way to Gaza

explosions when Gaza is being hit

...

a reply to: MarlinGrace

Well, Anwar Sadat signed a peace accord for the region and was assassinated, Israel will encroach even when they agree not to, no... no it wouldn't.

I wasn't trying to absolve Israel, just too much pro Hamas around here lately.

originally posted by: demus
a reply to: CommandoJoe

your first hand experience is just that: first hand experience.

your first hand experience from Israel is not evidence.

your first hand experience is limited by your own immediate surroundings and understandings and availability to information.

So what evidence to you have to refute my statement that when Hamas is not launching rockets Israel leaves Gaza alone? Which again, is based on my direct observations from 5 years of living in the area...

also it interesting to note that you said:


"Gaza is being hit"

"planes and helicopters flying... ...on the way to Gaza"

"explosions when Gaza is being hit"
...

Care to elaborate what these snippets from my post mean to you? I was illustrating that when Hamas launches rockets, those are things I see. When Hamas is not launching rockets, I don't see those things... It's pretty simple.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

But you will NEVER see Hamas passing out leaflets saying "hay we are going to fire rockets from here soon so better evacuate as the Israelis will retaliate"

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: demus

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: b14warrior

It didn't mention that the air strike that killed the 3 "HAMAS leaders" killed seven civilians and leveled a city block. Also they tried to kill a militant the day previous and bombed, his house I guess, any way, in that attack they killed his wife a 2 daughers, and 18 month old son. The militant that was targeted however, wasn't there.

well, that is Barbaric and shows true nature of Hamas while few thousand Palestinian civilians killed by Israel are also killed by Hamas because Hamas use them as a human shields blah blah blah, blah blah blah...

anyway, whatever; Hamas is terrorist organization while IsisRAELohim is a beacon of Democracy and Justice in otherwise violent, backward and almost uninhabitable Middle East, blah blah blah, blah blah blah...

Israel created HAMAS, you know that right? Like not conspiracy, they created them. Also Hamas doesn't use human shields. Do you believe everything Israel tells you.

Yea its not human shields. Its just that Hamas doesn't give a plug. They set up a rocket launcher next to some guys house and say "sorry about your luck".

Its more like Hamas uses civilians for propaganda fodder because it certainly doesn't stop the IMF.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

But you will NEVER see Hamas passing out leaflets saying "hay we are going to fire rockets from here soon so better evacuate as the Israelis will retaliate"

You want to know why they don't do that? Because Israel will target the shelters that the people will go to for safety.

a reply to: Logarock

Its more like Hamas uses civilians for propaganda fodder because it certainly doesn't stop the IMF.

It doesn't stop the IDF either does it? What's another war crime in Israel's long list of war crimes.

originally posted by: b14warrior
a reply to: CommandoJoe

If you count forcing people to live in an open air prison, constrict the flow of medical equipment and medicine in and out along with other necessary supplies, disallow Gazan's to trade with Israeli's but allow Israel's to trade with Palestinians meaning that Gazan's can only sell goods inside of the prison whilst you live on land that on the best part was stolen, plus many other inhumane tactics of oppression....... then yeah, you pretty much leave Gaza alone!

How many prisons do you know of with 5 star restaurants and hotels?
What exactly is it that Gaza produces which Israel would want to buy? Do you realize that before Hamas took over the border with Gaza was much more open and Israeli's actually went to vacation at the beach in Gaza? And many Gazans worked in Israel and made a pretty good wage...

I'll ask it again, because EVERYONE here ignores it - WHERE OH WHERE IS THE CONDEMNATION OF EGYPT FOR HELPING TO MAINTAIN THIS PRISON? I hope you all know they control the southern border of Gaza... Why can't Palestinians trade with Egyptians? Where's the outcry about the Egyptians oppressing the Palestinians of Gaza? Why doesn't Hamas attack Egypt for keeping them penned up in Gaza? Why does NO ONE address this here? Everyone wants to vilify Israel, but not a peep about Egypt. They could open up their border and allow free trade in and out of Gaza...

Do you also leave farms and olive groves around the West Bank alone or do Israeli's force Palestian's off the land they have tended to for many many generations, abuse them and destroy their land and build on it leaving them homeless as has been documented and covered up by the Israeli government more times than I care to remember?

I would suggest that people living OUTSIDE of Israel will know better what is actually happening in Israel and Palestine as our media will be a little bit less biased. We all know around the world that inside Israel it is at least deeply frowned upon to criticise and publicise the actions of the government. Just look at the torrent of abuse, death threats and loss of work the few Israeli journalists that have tried to show the truth have received. Or perhaps the anti-war protester that were protesting peacefully but were attacked and chased through the streets and beaten for daring to seek the truth........ those alone should be enough to tell you to dig much further than Israeli, American or Zionist sympathetic mass media are currently.

I don't blindly support everything Israel does... But when it comes to Hamas I take a very hard stance as everyone should - they are terrorists plain and simple. They are the major cause of the current situation in Gaza - before they came to power life in Gaza was much better for the Palestinians there.
I don't think Israel should continue building settlements, and I wouldn't have a problem if they dismantled some of the smaller ones if the people were compensated, and if Israel didn't condone a particular construction, then demolish them and give those settlers nothing. The larger towns like Ariel which are 20k+ people are a tougher issue though. My co-worker lives there, and he is no settler, just renting an apartment there to be close to family.

From what I've seen of US and other international news about the situation here compared to my direct experience as a foreigner (American) living here, I can tell you that the MSM doesn't give the whole or accurate picture of the situation here. It is for the most part anti-Israel and leaves out a LOT of detail. And as I said, I don't watch Israeli TV news. Also, as I said in another thread, Haaretz is often critical of Israeli policies/actions, and even Ynet gets their digs in on occasion. So for those of you living outside of Israel and relying on the "news" for all your info - you are missing quite a bit. They might be "less biased" than Israeli media, but they are still (very in my opinion) biased and leaving out a lot.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

But you will NEVER see Hamas passing out leaflets saying "hay we are going to fire rockets from here soon so better evacuate as the Israelis will retaliate"

You want to know why they don't do that? Because Israel will target the shelters that the people will go to for safety.

Really? If Israel wanted to intentionally target civilians there could be 100k dead overnight very easily with a little carpet bombing. They know the public opinion of the world turns against them with every civilian casualty, that's why they actually DO try to minimize them. If they didn't care there would be many, many more dead, there would be no flyers, phone calls, or SMS warnings sent... But for people to expect Israel to take no action in response to rocket fire is ridiculous. How do you propose Israel handle thousands of rockets raining down on its people?

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Logarock

Its more like Hamas uses civilians for propaganda fodder because it certainly doesn't stop the IMF.

It doesn't stop the IDF either does it? What's another war crime in Israel's long list of war crimes.

No it doesn't. So if its murder the locals can still make the connection between the actions of Hamas and the result. Can't really see where Hamas gives a rats azz about the civilians.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: Expat888
Lets see.. the u.s executes spies during times of war .. in northern ireland during the troubles the i.r.a executed informers .. most countries around the world execute spies and informers during times of war ..
Considering it is war in gaza hamas executing informers is the same as other countries / groups executing spies and informers ..

Difference being that the US and other allied nations do not put their teachers, media, women and children on the front line, or hide behind them, use them as human shields or store weapons at their location.

Hamas must be a real paranoid group to be a part of.

Seeing how the IDF runs and hides in the farming communities that surround Gaza they have no place to talk about using human shields. Also many reporters that were in Gaza reported they saw Hamas ordered no one to be a human shield.

But you will NEVER see Hamas passing out leaflets saying "hay we are going to fire rockets from here soon so better evacuate as the Israelis will retaliate"

You want to know why they don't do that? Because Israel will target the shelters that the people will go to for safety.

Yea sure.....and I heard that Hamas blocks the exits with armed men.