Autism is normal in men

originally posted by: Cruithneach

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Cruithneach

Interesting hypothesis. F&S

I don't agree though - I've known too many men over the decades who do not fit your description. Still, interesting that autism is now so prevalent - maybe it IS a devolution.

No, not devolution, evolution. It is inherited, meaning it has persisted in people for an unknown reason. Meaning there may be actual benefits to the "disorder"

Yes - I do understand the idea of re-emergence, and have more than a passing understanding of epigenetic inheritance. If autism is re-emerging as a dominant trait, then environmental factors are triggering the trait's re-emergence via epigenetic mechanisms. What's interesting to me is what those environmental factors might be.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Annee

Just gonna imagine you in leather lol

.

LOL, oh I wore leather --- micro mini --- on my 5'7" 118 body.

My grandson's special teacher is having him repeat in regular kindergarten with a learning assistant. Because he is socially happy, very intelligent, but has "fast brain". He's always thinking and talking. He used to repeat a lot. He was fascinated with logos and would repeat the trademark statements. Now he carries on real conversation, but his teachers feel he would be stressed in a classroom he had to sit, focus, listen ---- rather then think independently. We are considering the Davinci program.

a reply to: Cruithneach

lol, I have been diagnosed autistic even before the mass diagnosing. To put it into some measurable context for you, I score above 40 on the AQ test online. Now, you mentioned these as being the significant traits for an autistic:

perceived lack of empathy or "callousness"; hyper-rationality and apathy, to the point that one may neglect frivolous, unnecessary friendships; lacking the ability to form deep emotional/social bonds

And yet, you're accusing an autistic of thinking "too emotionally"? That's kind of funny. Anyways, it was my son that would be disturbed as gender differences and their effects upon society is his current hyper-focus subject at the moment. Disturbed, for at least him and I, would be a puzzled and slightly concerned look on our faces. Any "worked up" that we get is a longwinded discourse on why the premise of the speaker is wrong in every little detail.

As far as disengaging myself from the context of the conversation, you're discussing autistics with incorrect assumptions and guess what? I'm autistic. I'm high functional but my tendencies are still severe. I'm just down the spectrum of Temple Grandin, who, herself, is just a few notches from being low functioning by her own admission. Why would I not chime in to voice what it is to be autistic on a thread purporting to be about autism? Perhaps what you should ask yourself is why you are accusing someone who is, by your own statements, is supposed to be hyper rational of being "too emotional"?

Was I emotional when I wrote my post? Not really. However, I deliberately chose my words very carefully so you could understand how your premise of autism being more "manly" and that we were built for a harsher environment was so very mistaken and in the clearest way possible. Re-read it again but with knowing that my intention was to a. both express how, at least, the autistics that I know a. view gender differences and b. view and experience the world as clearly as possible.

If an actual autistic chiming in with their opinion on your ideas of what autism is actually bothers you, then perhaps you should consider that. I'm trying to talk about what it actually is through my and my autistic friends' experiences. If you have an issue with actually taking what might be information contrary to your beliefs, then you are the one committing a logical fallacy.

I don't know if I'd consider autistic behavior evolution or something that's always been, but not focused on.

My family (both sides) seems to be generational in this behavior. Brilliant minds, but they all seem to be independent, self employed, laborer types. One uncle loved going to school. He had 3 degrees. But, drove a city bus because that's what he liked.

I've been following this subject for a long time. I had an ADD daughter (1968 prior to Autism Spectrum). She had zero attention span on a one to one. Teachers had to use physical contact. They squeezed her hands when talking to her. I had a great doctor and school support. She's fine today.

A leading researcher says the body/brain goes through a process about every 3 years. We know about puberty, but this researcher says a similar process, though less noticeable, happens in regular cycles about every 3 to 5 years.

This is one reason some blame vaccinations. There is a type of autism that strikes normal developing children around the age of 3 to 5. It coincides with the ages most kids get their shots, but really has nothing to do with the vaccinations.

The brain is trainable. That is why early intervention is needed for kids that fall into the Autism Spectrum. In most cases it's not about fixing something that is broken (damaged/defective brain causing severe autism). Most in the autism spectrum would fall under dysfunctional, not damaged/defective.

Early training helps the brain learn to focus. The brain is a living organism that learns, evolves, and adjusts.

I have considered that autism seems like masculine thought to an extreme,
and schizophrenia as feminine thought gone to an extreme.

That doesn't mean it is "normal" for anyone to be so unbalanced. It just means some of each, in moderation, might be "normal".

a reply to: WhiteAlice

Temple Grandin

Awesome and fascinating.

Would she have been who she is with early intervention?

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: WhiteAlice

I say we gang up on the so called 'normal' people and take over the world!
Yes Pinky, we will rule and be rulers.

Hive mind! We are the Borg and humanity will be assimilated.
If they only knew...

a reply to: Annee

My son was the same way. I remember when he was about 3 years old, one of his neighborhood friends had fallen and scuffed her knee. When she sat on a step, crying from the pain, my son sat down beside her with one arm around her shoulder and cried with the same amount of anguish as her own as if it was his knee that was scuffed. It stunned our neighbors because it was so clear that he was sharing her pain on an intense level and they all commented on how deeply empathetic he was. That might sound strange to some as we're perceived as being callous. Today, that same little boy would be perceived as callous 15 years later but, internally, he still feels very, very deeply. Somewhere along the line, we just stop expressing it but even should that happen with your grandson, just remember that those things are still in there no matter what his face is showing.

The high functioning type sometimes has gifts or "specialties". There's an upside and a downside to that hyper-focus. For my son, he would dive into one subject so hard that he'd dismiss all others in school. He'd still test higher than normal on all subjects, but his grades really reflected where his focus was. That's a downside. The upside is that language is his most frequent object of hyper-focus and he speaks Navajo, Spanish, and Japanese as well as a native speaker would because he obsessed on perfecting those little nuances in speech and sound.

Every one of us is different in how we adapt and what bothers us. I'm intensely sound sensitive (also have absolute pitch). My son is less so but we're both touch sensitive. He can get up before a class and do a speech without any issue. I drone on in a monotone and fail to engage with the audience if I try doing the same, lol. So expect the unexpected in the years to come.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

My grandson is hair sensitive. He loves his hair. We keep it fairly long, about shoulder length. It's too thick and wavy to go longer. We just trim it and keep his bangs out of his eyes.

Hair washing is a nightmare, although getting better. I actually researched "hair pain" on the net. And found out that it does exist.

We just go with him. Let him be who he is.

Except rude or aggressive behavior. We really stress manners and polite behavior.

I learned this from my ADD daughters doctor. Make them personally responsible for their own behavior.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: WhiteAlice

Temple Grandin

Awesome and fascinating.

Would she have been who she is with early intervention?

If I recall her story correctly, Temple's mother actually ignored what the doctors were saying about her daughter and challenged her where she could be challenged and accepted her overall. I honestly think that is the best course for raising those with autism. Some things we need to have explained to us like "why eye contact is important even if it is uncomfortable" or "why giving some level of concern to one's appearance has a place". Those things are workable and adaptable.

Not sure if you've seen her talking about this but it does tie into some of the discussion here about whether it's evolution or if it's always been. Like you and Temple, I think we've always been a part of humanity. It's just now we're a "problem" that needs correcting or curing. Lately, I've been chewing on the concept that society seems to have a drive towards homogenizing the brain and its diversity. I'm a big believer in that our diversity is what it is because it was found to be useful and is humanity's strength--not a failing. Historically speaking, our religious leaders (ie saints), inventors, philosophers, and artists might all have been construed as being greatly divergent from the norm or even flat out mentally ill. I think it's a fine line to be watched when we aim to correct and normalize humanity. It should be extraordinarily case dependent. I don't want to be cured. Accepted but not corrected.

Anyways, here's Temple talking on the subject:

a reply to: WhiteAlice

The thing is, the brain learns. The brain is a living organism that learns, retains, and evolves.

While I'm with you on the "homogenizing", we also live and function within a society. There is no more wild frontier until we colonize another planet or moon.

I do support early intervention. If done right. And that's the important key "done right".

I have Asperger's. I don't know if it's technically considered autism anymore but I will say I don't think it's really normal. Some of us are very sensitive among other things and as such wouldn't be considered "normal" by most men. Granted I can see through things that others will be captivated by, see things others can't, highly creative, bright but I lack many social skills (am learning though, it's a process).

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Cruithneach

lol, I have been diagnosed autistic even before the mass diagnosing. To put it into some measurable context for you, I score above 40 on the AQ test online. Now, you mentioned these as being the significant traits for an autistic:

perceived lack of empathy or "callousness"; hyper-rationality and apathy, to the point that one may neglect frivolous, unnecessary friendships; lacking the ability to form deep emotional/social bonds

And yet, you're accusing an autistic of thinking "too emotionally"? That's kind of funny. Anyways, it was my son that would be disturbed as gender differences and their effects upon society is his current hyper-focus subject at the moment. Disturbed, for at least him and I, would be a puzzled and slightly concerned look on our faces. Any "worked up" that we get is a longwinded discourse on why the premise of the speaker is wrong in every little detail.

As far as disengaging myself from the context of the conversation, you're discussing autistics with incorrect assumptions and guess what? I'm autistic. I'm high functional but my tendencies are still severe. I'm just down the spectrum of Temple Grandin, who, herself, is just a few notches from being low functioning by her own admission. Why would I not chime in to voice what it is to be autistic on a thread purporting to be about autism? Perhaps what you should ask yourself is why you are accusing someone who is, by your own statements, is supposed to be hyper rational of being "too emotional"?

Was I emotional when I wrote my post? Not really. However, I deliberately chose my words very carefully so you could understand how your premise of autism being more "manly" and that we were built for a harsher environment was so very mistaken and in the clearest way possible. Re-read it again but with knowing that my intention was to a. both express how, at least, the autistics that I know a. view gender differences and b. view and experience the world as clearly as possible.

If an actual autistic chiming in with their opinion on your ideas of what autism is actually bothers you, then perhaps you should consider that. I'm trying to talk about what it actually is through my and my autistic friends' experiences. If you have an issue with actually taking what might be information contrary to your beliefs, then you are the one committing a logical fallacy.

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But i'm more interested in what some actual evolutionary benefits to autism might be. Why was it not completely bred out by natural selection? There seems to be a cold-climate correlation, why is this?

And you have to at least acknowledge gender differences. Men and women aren't the same, there is no arguing against that. You can debate in what ways and to what extent they're different, though.

originally posted by: Cruithneach

And you have to at least acknowledge gender differences. Men and women aren't the same, there is no arguing against that. You can debate in what ways and to what extent they're different, though.

I think some of the imbalance is gender expectation.

Men are expected to be logical and out going ---- women can be total space cases and someone will say, "Oh, she's just being a woman".

Also, active boys are being way over diagnosed as ADHD, just because they're active. We went through this with my older grandson (now 20). The school tried to force us to medicate him. But, I knew real ADD from his mom. I knew the difference between active and real dysfunction.

And what's with the cold climate? I'd say that's probably a difference in cultures. Northern cold climates seem to be more industrious. While warmer equator countries seem to be more relaxed and accepting of less industrious behavior.

originally posted by: Cruithneach

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Cruithneach

lol, I have been diagnosed autistic even before the mass diagnosing. To put it into some measurable context for you, I score above 40 on the AQ test online. Now, you mentioned these as being the significant traits for an autistic:

perceived lack of empathy or "callousness"; hyper-rationality and apathy, to the point that one may neglect frivolous, unnecessary friendships; lacking the ability to form deep emotional/social bonds

And yet, you're accusing an autistic of thinking "too emotionally"? That's kind of funny. Anyways, it was my son that would be disturbed as gender differences and their effects upon society is his current hyper-focus subject at the moment. Disturbed, for at least him and I, would be a puzzled and slightly concerned look on our faces. Any "worked up" that we get is a longwinded discourse on why the premise of the speaker is wrong in every little detail.

As far as disengaging myself from the context of the conversation, you're discussing autistics with incorrect assumptions and guess what? I'm autistic. I'm high functional but my tendencies are still severe. I'm just down the spectrum of Temple Grandin, who, herself, is just a few notches from being low functioning by her own admission. Why would I not chime in to voice what it is to be autistic on a thread purporting to be about autism? Perhaps what you should ask yourself is why you are accusing someone who is, by your own statements, is supposed to be hyper rational of being "too emotional"?

Was I emotional when I wrote my post? Not really. However, I deliberately chose my words very carefully so you could understand how your premise of autism being more "manly" and that we were built for a harsher environment was so very mistaken and in the clearest way possible. Re-read it again but with knowing that my intention was to a. both express how, at least, the autistics that I know a. view gender differences and b. view and experience the world as clearly as possible.

If an actual autistic chiming in with their opinion on your ideas of what autism is actually bothers you, then perhaps you should consider that. I'm trying to talk about what it actually is through my and my autistic friends' experiences. If you have an issue with actually taking what might be information contrary to your beliefs, then you are the one committing a logical fallacy.

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But i'm more interested in what some actual evolutionary benefits to autism might be. Why was it not completely bred out by natural selection? There seems to be a cold-climate correlation, why is this?

And you have to at least acknowledge gender differences. Men and women aren't the same, there is no arguing against that. You can debate in what ways and to what extent they're different, though.

That's if one thinks we're actually evolutionary. Honestly, I think autism has been around for a very long time. The difference is that it's become one of the "defects du jour". Like boymonkey74 stated, the difference in numbers may not be an actual increase but improved detection.

As far as gender differences go, I think many of them are learned via society--most of them actually.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice

As far as gender differences go, I think many of them are learned via society--most of them actually.

I used to lean that way until my current grandson.

This kid lives in a house of females. But, he is so boy. He thinks burping, and other bodily functions are the coolest thing ever. And he doesn't have any regular boy playmates.

He's just naturally inherently male. They have a problem with him in school, because he always picks some girl to protect. The girl is not always in favor of it.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: WhiteAlice

As far as gender differences go, I think many of them are learned via society--most of them actually.

I used to lean that way until my current grandson.

This kid lives in a house of females. But, he is so boy. He thinks burping, and other bodily functions are the coolest thing ever. And he doesn't have any regular boy playmates.

He's just naturally inherently male. They have a problem with him in school, because he always picks some girl to protect. The girl is not always in favor of it.

I don't think those things are inherently reserved for being a boy. Know plenty of women who find the same things humorous. I remember watching "Dumb and Dumber" in the theater and everyone was laughing like mad at the diarrhea scene. We just tend to relegate such things as being humorous only to those uncivilized boys.

lol Funny about the girls. He's probably pretty confused with why his being a knight is being rebuked, lol.

a reply to: Cruithneach

The only uppity woman I see right now is the one that wrote the post I'm responding to.

A man wrote that post. And this one too.

Some of us like uppity women.

originally posted by: Cruithneach
Ok, I understand where you're coming from. But i'm more interested in what some actual evolutionary benefits to autism might be. Why was it not completely bred out by natural selection? There seems to be a cold-climate correlation, why is this?

And you have to at least acknowledge gender differences. Men and women aren't the same, there is no arguing against that. You can debate in what ways and to what extent they're different, though.

I can think of two things that would push an increase in autism in an "evolutionary sense". First is self-selection of mates later in life. Think back to the 50's - you married young, typically high school or maybe a college sweetheart. When I read engagement stories from WWII I'm amazed at how quickly people selected and married each other - I mean, we're talking weeks. Marriage is happening later in life, after college, after some time in the work force. If people select mates like themselves, then someone with autistic traits is more likely to select someone else with the same traits. Look at the rate of ASD in Silicon Valley. Hubby and I refer to it as the "geek syndrome" sometimes. We married each other, both with similar traits, with similar families. Our kids didn't stand a chance when it came to the genetic pool!

Second may be the evolution of jobs from labor intensive to mind intensive. Look at jobs that are supposed to increase (and have increased) - computers, accountants, engineers and the like. (Well, minimum wage service jobs too, but if you're going to choose a mate would you select an engineer or a McD's worker.) It was Temple Grandin that said

“What would happen if the autism gene was eliminated from the gene pool? You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and socializing and not getting anything done.”

a reply to: Mountainmeg

I can actually agree with self-selection. Most of my closest friends are on the spectrum. Heck, recently, after my curiosity was piqued in a discussion with my best friend of 20+ years on the subject of sensory sensitivity, she took the AQ test and scored much higher than the average person. Not a diagnosis, obviously, but still interesting nonetheless. It actually made a lot of sense to us both.

As far as relating it to technology goes, I participated in a research study a few years ago about autistics and their use of the internet. Despite the jokes being those with autism being unable to pick up on sarcasm and grammar nazis, apparently, we communicate better not just with others who are also autistic but with those who are not. According to the researcher, who talked with me a great deal on the subject after the questionnaire, he surmised that it was likely that the internet was the most comfortable medium for us to use because we are both in control of our sensory environments and not being stuck trying to process facial cues. Using the internet, we're more capable of developing social and emotional bonds. He also said that we were early adopters of the internet. If we were both early adopters and are better able to create emotional and social bonds online, then both of those things would improve the finding of others who actually understand the way we tick. Instead of being the solitary alien in the room in a non-internet world, we can better find our fellow aliens. That could be one of the reasons why autism may be more prevalent today even outside the Silicon Valley.

In a way, it is like the genetics for autism is being selected in response to the environment. The internet has had a huge effect on society especially for autistics as a venue for communication and connection. There is also something inherently anti-social to the internet despite the penchant for calling those things that connect humanity as a whole "social media". Non-autistics need more face to face interaction than autistics. In a sense, we can both survive and prosper in this change in the world. lol, I think I may have just half-convinced myself that it's evolution at work.

Would also explain the hate and fear of us. I don't know if many of you know this but being autistic is the new insult of the day in the gaming world. It's being used as a slur.

Going to toss in this paper by Temple Grandin to hopefully clarify a few things on the subject of autism and give people a better understanding of what it is. It's very well written and extremely thorough (of course).

How People with Autism Think by Temple Grandin