Oh... Finally NY Times Discovers Neo-Nazis In Ukraine

a reply to: stumason

You are of course aware that isn't a Nazi symbol? It's from Germanic heraldry and is in use on various coats of arms from around Germany

which is probably how it came to be used by certain units in the War, but it pre-dates Nazism by several centuries - much like the Swastika.

Yes. I have never said otherwise. Most recent widespread usage appears to be Neo-Nazi and previously those associated with Nazi Germany. Not counting the aristocrats heraldry of course.

I have not seen anyone do this. What we have denied is that they are running the "Junta", as some like to call it. The Government only had 4 far-right MP's (from Svoboda who are, whether you like it or not, a democratically elected Party in parliament with 12% of the vote) in the Cabinet out of 20 Ministerial positions

Well, I've never called it a "Junta" as far as I recall. I do call them as I see them though and the Azov Battalion is commanded by a white supremacist and is leading numerous Neo-Nazi members. With the blessings or at least agreement of Kiev.

originally posted by: Bassago
Yes. I have never said otherwise. Most recent widespread usage appears to be Neo-Nazi and previously those associated with Nazi Germany. Not counting the aristocrats heraldry of course.

Actually, "widespread usage" would have it on dozens of municipal Coats of Arms, such as Dassendorf or Burgwedel, to name just two out of many. It isn't a proscribed symbol in Germany and connecting it to Nazism is like saying anything red is Nazi affiliated.

originally posted by: Bassago
Well, I've never called it a "Junta" as far as I recall. I do call them as I see them though and the Azov Battalion is commanded by a white supremacist and is leading numerous Neo-Nazi members. With the blessings or at least agreement of Kiev.

No, you haven't, but plenty of others do.

As for this Azov battalion, it is hardly any different to the myriad of different "Pro-Russian" units with equally dodgy reputations, with leaders who like to call themselves "Demon", for example, who even if they aren't "neo-Nazi's" (although being such a "nationalist" surely puts you in the same ballpark) still sound like right horrible bastards.

I once worked for a former spook who had a sign on his desk that read: "The enemy of my enemy is at least my part-time associate."

In other words, this individual or group is not necessarily a friend, but if we're fighting for the same goal, we might as well fight peaceably alongside one another. We'll finish our business once the job at hand is done.

And of course, if you're the one running the show, some of those "part-time associates" make great shock-troops. AKA bullet stoppers. Let the enemy wear themselves out fighting the first wave, then come in fresh with the professional army to mop up. Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

The barbaric militia can also do things that you could never do, and you can distance yourself by saying: "They wouldn't follow orders."

In fighting this proxy war, the world powers are not above using anyone and anything to gain an advantage. Then they will destroy those inconvenient resources once they are finished. The US has done it many times in its history, as have many other nations throughout the history of the civilized world.

Ironically by working with them during that conflict, the larger power gains greater insight into these part-time associates structure and tactics. This makes it easier to exterminate them when the time comes.

IMHO

Dex

a reply to: Bassago
So now that the NYT acknowleges well-known facts, members like Xcathdra and Skeptic Overlords will have to review their stance here on Ukraine...

But I think this has yo do with the recent quitting of neonazi party Svoboda and their buddies of the Fatherland party recently, as Western mainstream outlets are unlikely to expose a NATO-allied and backed government. I suppose their obvious Nazi sympathies were too burdensome for foreign relations...

Flagged.

a reply to: Echtelion

On friday the beach season ends in Odessa region, the beaches are closing. Strange move in the middle of summer. Why? To prepare the place for "landing"?

a reply to: Echtelion

So now that the NYT acknowleges well-known facts, members like Xcathdra and Skeptic Overlords will have to review their stance here on Ukraine...

Actually, you need to start reading what others have been posting. No-one has ever denied that there are ultra-nationalist and Neo-Nazi parties in Ukraine. We have simply consistently pointed out that they are in the minority in Kyiv and the majority in the so called "people's republics."

a reply to: maghun

On friday the beach season ends in Odessa region, the beaches are closing. Strange move in the middle of summer. Why? To prepare the place for "landing"?

No, it's because no-one wants to go there on holiday:

www.nytimes.com...

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: maghun

On friday the beach season ends in Odessa region, the beaches are closing. Strange move in the middle of summer. Why? To prepare the place for "landing"?

No, it's because no-one wants to go there on holiday:

www.nytimes.com...

Its only going to get worse for crimean residence. They cant produce the food they need and cant import enough. The banking system is gone and no tourists. Within a year you wont recognize the place. Having vacationed in Russia ill say Russians dont inderstand tourism at all. And i gurantee it wont be long before they have a revolt as crimea decides to go back to Ukraine. See Russia is a very restrictive society and the people in crimea wont be happy.

You may want to research the archetype of the Black Sun. It was a favorite of Nazi secret societies. I have seen it in a former life. The sun, cosmologically, may actually be a member of a double star system, with a black hole or a brown dwarf as the other party of the dyad hence precession.

I know that behind the scenes brigades like Azov are aligned with negative Theocratic spirit entities - that is why they wear such insignia. It connects them to roots like the Secret Society Nazis. It's a complex issue because some have actually good intentions but they are convinved that a terrible war is coming to Earth anyway, and they think it is better that way.
All the same, I'm not convinced Putin and his rebels are "cleaner" just because they display the Red Star so proudly.

Someone may want to chronicle the actions of this brigade - with credible news sources not just RT which keeps on making whopping accusations with mishmashed footage these days,

Here's an article on interviews with Donetsk residents - they are beginning to realize that Russia has been manipulating them.

Christian Science Monitor

Russian TV - which 90% of them watch including Russian-speaking populations in the West from Russia - has been putting forward the proposition that the Kiev change of government was a coup d'état, the rulers are all Fascists and they are out to get "us decent people". As the OP poits out, there are indeed Nazis in Ukraine, but the question is...
- is that the whole truth? Doesn't Putin start to live up to an image where he uses Russian minorities stranded in post-Soviet places like Hitler used the Volksbund in Czech, Polish, Hungarian and Transylvanian areas?
Moldova is next...

So where you have that, you naturally see angry nationalist groups displaying the opposite symbols and a white supremacist ideology. Well, their ideology must be pretty twisted ethnically, even for a Nazi, since Russians are white and Christian mostly... Is there a contadiction?

Contradictions do not matter when you analyze a group like the Azov Battaillon - they do away with such problems in no time, sir. Question is rather, how strong they are in numbers and how widespread is this fear-rousing display? In Hungary, far-right groups were marching up and down with uniforms and bad training to intimidate Gypsies (they are white supremacists who think Gypsies are a subordinate species). Then they were banned but cropped up in a different paramilitary uniform. It was a war in words until some psychopathic killers exterminated a half of dozen Gypsy people - including small children and their mothers - just to terrify the Gypsy community. They were brought to justice and sentenced, although at every point the police and the government tried to stop investigation and trial.

An excellent film was made of that by Eszter Hajdu, titled "Judgment in Hungary". It won some awards. (I don't think the whole thing is on the net though.) It took two years of filming.

In Guatemala, US-trained death squads were torturing to death entire Mayan villages and any leftists sympathizers, priests included, with the support of the government and the School of the Americas during the eighties.

So how many of these squads are operating in Ukraine and what is the government's relationship to them?
What did they actually do? Remember My Lai.

Research please. You know the language obviously. Or some of you.

a reply to: DJW001

I thought that you don't even know what you're talking about... Odessa region in Crimea? Perfect spokesperson for the United States Department of State-

originally posted by: maghun
a reply to: DJW001

I thought that you don't even know what you're talking about... Odessa region in Crimea? Perfect spokesperson for the United States Department of State-

My bad. I wasn't paying attention.