Not Another Gaza Thread. Just a Brief Self-Examination. Nothing Profound.

Dear ATSers,

I've been in a few Gaza threads, and have intentionally stayed out of a few more. I'm not going to argue for Israel, Hamas, Jews, Palestinians, the UN, or anybody else. But I would like us to look at ourselves.

The majority (vast?) of these threads follow an identical pattern. An interview, tweet, photograph, UN pronouncement, a press report by Hamas, whether it's true, false, wildly exaggerated, or taken out of context (yes, some false things have been used in OPs), anything which might put Israel in a bad light is used as the subject of an OP.

Within 15 minutes several other posters have written comments supporting the OP, and you can count on seeing "war crimes" and "Genocide" in the first few posts. Sometimes they'll throw in "targeting innocent civilians," or, if really trying to impress, they'll make it "Intentionally targeting innocent civilians." The pattern has changed a little bit recently, the facts now force pro-(Gazans?) to say somewhere, "I don't like Hamas, but ...." and off they go.

Then a few posters will jump in and say, "But your facts are wrong," "You left out ...," or "Would you explain clearly how to get a long-term peace without destroying Israel." The OP and supporters will either ignore those interjections or reply with irrelevancies, or keep repeating things that are palpably false.

At the moment, it seems like the goal is to repeat the same things over and over, as often as possible, under the theory that a lie told often enough must be true.

My question is, is it possible for ATS to have a discussion on this issue, or has it been taken over fanatics? ATS can make up it's own mind, just let me know, please.

(Oh, I'm supposed to offer my opinion, that's right. I'm leaning heavily toward the belief that the issue has been taken over by a few fanatics, maybe 20 or fewer, and real discussion is highly unlikely.)

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

"(Oh, I'm supposed to offer my opinion, that's right. I'm leaning heavily toward the belief that the issue has been taken over by a few fanatics, maybe 20 or fewer, and real discussion is highly unlikely.) "

Holy Cow YES!

Never mind the facts, the photoshopped photos, total out right lies about arms, etc. etc. This is definitely digital screaming at it's finest. The tragedy is not just the conflict but the verbiage used so often in terms of rhetoric, it has cheapened the meaning of something as serious as the word Genocide.

At this point nothing said can any longer be taken seriously, when confronted with logic that cannot be argued, then the personal attacks start. They add nothing to the credibility of their cause, and make the realization of propaganda all too apparent in an attempt to sway public opinion.

Thanks for bringing this up Charles.

a reply to: charles1952

Hey Charles,

I hear you. The agenda is obvious and is testing the limits of the site. I'm not sure we're all going to be able to get along after this plays itself out. That's kind of sad, because either side of the situation is beyond any member's control.

-Cheers

a reply to: MarlinGrace

Dear MarlinGrace,

Thanks for your comments. I can always get an argument within my family if I want one. I come to ATS hoping for something better.

Think of it, the chance to trade ideas with people from other countries, people who don't even understand my thoughts, nor do I understand theirs. But a little work and bridge building, and my mind is deeply enriched. But these arguments? "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

I want to learn, but they refuse to teach.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Despite the fact that you're trying hard to look neutral, it's obvious, at least for me, that you lean towards Israel.

a reply to: Snarl

Dear Snarl,

Absolutely correct. And sadness is what I feel most of all, followed by frustration.

As far as getting along later, I can only hope that they're monomaniacs and once we get to another topic they may become reasonable. But, like you, I'm not sure either.

One consolation I have is that just as God is amazingly merciful and forgiving to me, I pray that he's merciful to all of us.

With respect,
Charles1952

Umm, I agree with your assessment entirely, Charles. My opinion is that it is not possible to have an honest discussion about this issue. This, I feel, is primarily due to the overwhelming majority that supports one side of the debate. When relevant, pertinent facts are brought up by those who do not share the opinions of the majority, they are largely ignored, not addressed and lost in pages of commentary.

At the moment, it seems like the goal is to repeat the same things over and over, as often as possible, under the theory that a lie told often enough must be true.

I must say (not trying to change the subject), I feel exactly as you do when matters of Christianity are discussed here on ATS.

a reply to: gosseyn

Dear gosseyn,

Despite the fact that you're trying hard to look neutral, it's obvious, at least for me, that you lean towards Israel.

Yes, I do. But that makes no difference.

What I'm looking for is a way to have a respectful discussion. I've had lengthy discussions with a poster who describes himself, if I remember correctly, as a drag queen. I don't approve of that, but our discussions are lengthy and reasonable. I have learned a lot from him, and he has shown respect and understanding to me.

Why can't we do that here? There are people on the Palestinian side, people on the Israeli side. What is it about this issue that makes conversation impossible?

With respect,
Charles1952

In time this insanity shall too become part of history ...
propaganda has long been a part of warfare .. only thing new is with social media its more in your face than it has been in past .. the battle for hearts and minds gets ugly ..

Meh .. would still sit and have a drink with everyone - even those whose views differ ..

a reply to: TruthLover557

Dear TruthLover557,

First, may I say that I admire your name. That's what we should be here for. Not to beat somebody, but to be guided (or guide) lovingly toward Truth.

You're right on the Christian threads as well. The only difference I see is that occasionally an agnostic will truly want to learn about Christianity, or is willing to have some false beliefs corrected. Not often, but it's better odds than winning the lottery.

I've even had some good Muslim - Christian conversations. When i find someone like that I treat him as a rare pearl and can ignore the rest of the shouting.

Here, though?

Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Your OP is pernicious. You start by saying :

I'm not going to argue for Israel

But then you throw at us a diatribe about how bad it is to defend Hamas and "how good for the debate" it would be if people stopped to criticize Israel. Care to explain ?

a reply to: Expat888

Dear Expat888,

In time this insanity shall too become part of history ... propaganda has long been a part of warfare .. only thing new is with social media its more in your face than it has been in past .. the battle for hearts and minds gets ugly ..

Meh .. would still sit and have a drink with everyone - even those whose views differ ..

You may be the person I'm looking for. I confess that I have allowed irritation to show through in some of my posts, but if I remember correctly, you've gotten pretty rough yourself.

OK, I'll buy the first round. Just tell me, how do we get this back on track? I suspect that many Gazans are fed to the teeth with Hamas. Should we be helping then get rid of Hamas? Is there a way to do that that will stop the Israeli shelling?

I'd love to talk about it and hear real thoughts, not scripted talking points.

With respect,
Charles1952

I've pretty much stayed out of all those threads as well Charles. Emotions when discussing this topic range from foaming at the mouth fanatical to blasé who cares how many people die. I have seen a few that have chosen not to take sides, but it has been rare.

I'm not sure why there is such polarization concerning this topic, but it's there nonetheless. While it's true that all of us do have opinions concerning Israel and Gaza, it's also true that 99.999% of those commenting have absolutely no clue what the true story is. Seriously. I'm not saying that in hopes of ruffling feathers here, I am merely stating what is the truth. Unless we live there and see it first hand, there is I way to know for certain what is propaganda and what isn't. We are being spoon fed the small nuggets of information that we do have, and since the press has been caught a million times with their pants down... Where does That really leave us?

In a perfect world, calm and respectful discussion could take place, then again... if we lived in a perfect world we wouldn't even have to be discussing this at all.

Yet here we are. I don't know what the answer is Charles. If I ever find it, you'll be the first I PM about it. Stay strong and ignore the circus around you as best as you can. It's all you can do really.

One thing I find very suspicious is this thing about the sophisticated Gaza tunnel systems.

Why didn't Israeli Intelligence not catch on to that after so much time ?

There must be more to the whole Israel/Palestine issue than we know.

Unless Israel has known all along and had some other "restrictions" ?

a reply to: gosseyn

Dear gosseyn,

I'd be happy to try to explain. If I'm not clear, "hit me upside the head."

But then you throw at us a diatribe about how bad it is to defend Hamas and "how good for the debate" it would be if people stopped to criticize Israel. Care to explain ?

I have no difficulty with anybody defending Hamas, or Israel. But I don't think I was on a "diatribe." Let's leave that aside, though.

An imaginary defense of Hamas might begin with "They're the fairly elected government of Palestine." A possible response might be "Is "fairly elected" the term that should be used?" With research and reason, we could find out how likely it was that Hamas was fairly elected. We resolve that point and go on to the next.

But if the defense of Hamas starts out with "Hamas was created by the CIA at the request of Israel so Israel could have an enemy to get weapons from the US. Israel's plan is to commit genocide, wiping out all Palestinians so Israel can take their land and get oil." Well, there aren't many responses to that. Perhaps the most reasonable one is to just walk away sadly.

The Palestinian supporters criticize Israel, and the Israeli supporters criticize Palestine. That's pretty much a given. But I want to explore this with facts and reason to find out which side has which bits of truth.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Spent many an hour pondering on how to go about it .. unfortuneatly with little result as to how to get people to step back .. calm down and talk rationally .. the common people on all sides of conflicts suffer most and no one speaks for them .. seen far too much over the years putting the victims of the psycopaths of the world back together that now am old cynical and disgusted with all of it as humanity fails to learn instead it continues the idiocy and senseless slaughter ..

regular people can and do get along in the world .. the problem is the psychopaths who lead them have no regard for human life nor compassion for people .. walked away from all of that have neither need nor use for any governments or leaders ..

To be honest still trying to figure out a solution that will benefit the regular people and not the psychopaths ..

Trying to stay out of those threads at moment as thinking of all the innocent victims my temper running bit short .. prefer to remain calm .. civil and rational .. too many nightmares of all that seen in warzones over the years and all the victims of the insanity ..

a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

Dear Kangaruex4Ewe,

You're a jewel, thanks a lot.

I've stayed out of forums such as video games, 9/11, weapons, aircraft, paranormal, oh, a whole bunch of them. Why? Because I don't know a thing about them. But there's another reason. I can't go into a thread in those areas and use reason to discern truth either. Those subjects aren't suited for that.

Unless we live there and see it first hand, there is I way to know for certain what is propaganda and what isn't. We are being spoon fed the small nuggets of information that we do have, and since the press has been caught a million times with their pants down... Where does That really leave us?

Taking this to an extreme, we really can't know anything about the rest of the world. As I may have mentioned, the different nationalities, cultures and view points here, coupled with our joy in debunking false statements, should make ATS a special place where finding at least part of the truth is possible.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
Dear ATSers,

I've been in a few Gaza threads, and have intentionally stayed out of a few more. I'm not going to argue for Israel, Hamas, Jews, Palestinians, the UN, or anybody else. But I would like us to look at ourselves.

I have seen you support Israel on these boards though. Effectively, you have argued for Israel, even if only subtly.

The majority (vast?) of these threads follow an identical pattern. An interview, tweet, photograph, UN pronouncement, a press report by Hamas, whether it's true, false, wildly exaggerated, or taken out of context (yes, some false things have been used in OPs), anything which might put Israel in a bad light is used as the subject of an OP.

I've seen the same for the pro-Israel side. But yes, you are correct in that the majority of the threads favour Palestine. I think that may be due to the fact that Israel has undertaken a higher amount of questionable actions than Hamas. And the media has reported as such

Within 15 minutes several other posters have written comments supporting the OP, and you can count on seeing "war crimes" and "Genocide" in the first few posts.

Well, Israel has seemed to have violated international law. Indeed, Ban Ki-Moon, the UN chief, called Israel's latest attack on a shelter, a crime.

Sometimes they'll throw in "targeting innocent civilians," or, if really trying to impress, they'll make it "Intentionally targeting innocent civilians." The pattern has changed a little bit recently, the facts now force pro-(Gazans?) to say somewhere, "I don't like Hamas, but ...." and off they go.

It's hard not to look at the destruction and say that every civilian casualty was an accident, especially when you consider the amount of public places hit by Israel - schools, mosques, hospitals, shelters, market places......

You don't have to support Hamas to support Palestine.

Then a few posters will jump in and say, "But your facts are wrong," "You left out ...," or "Would you explain clearly how to get a long-term peace without destroying Israel." The OP and supporters will either ignore those interjections or reply with irrelevancies, or keep repeating things that are palpably false.

This happens on both sides. I won't name names, but i myself, have had to correct some right wing members who post blatant pro-Israel information, from pro-Israeli sources.....It is not a problem restricted to those on the Palestinian side of the fence.

I know you will reply in saying that you are claiming the above of the general ATS population, but you aren't. So far, this thread has focused on the Palestinian side making the Israeli side look bad.

At the moment, it seems like the goal is to repeat the same things over and over, as often as possible, under the theory that a lie told often enough must be true.

The thing is, a lot of the stuff posted are not lies. I know for a fact that every thread of mine, had been authored to the exact standards and information, as known at the time. Some perspectives may oppose yours, but it doesn't mean they are lies.

My question is, is it possible for ATS to have a discussion on this issue, or has it been taken over fanatics? ATS can make up it's own mind, just let me know, please.

I believe we can have a proper discussion. Indeed, we all were, before things started heating up so much. I try to maintain proper discourse, but may have let go here and there...

(Oh, I'm supposed to offer my opinion, that's right. I'm leaning heavily toward the belief that the issue has been taken over by a few fanatics, maybe 20 or fewer, and real discussion is highly unlikely.)

We've seen extreme opinions presented by fanatics from both sides. Now that Israel has pulled out all of its troops, we may start to see some proper discourse return to the boards, although i am of the opinion that the intellectual discussions never really left.

a reply to: xuenchen

Dear xuenchen,

Thank you, thank you. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't seen anyone raise that point, and I didn't think of it either. Why now?

Now that's a question which could lead to some profitable information. There are all sorts of possibilities, but if there's a story or article out there, ATSers can find it.

Thanks again.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

The problem is you try to come off as a chivalrous knight with a shiny armour on a white horse, very polite and well educated, but then you start to speak and that image gets destroyed in a myriad pieces like a shattered mirror.

You can just be yourself and say it, you know ? You're for Israel, and even if they kill children, you don't care and you stick to it. No worries, you're not alone.