US Allows Use Of Evidence Gained By Torture.

The main problem with torture is that it doesnt work very well. People will tell you what they think you want to hear to make you stop. If I was in the field and the captured enemy had info that would save my mens lives I would get it in ANY manner I could but torture is just not real effective all the time.

``

even the definition of torture, didn't clear anything up for me...

at least once-a-month....i purposely refrain at least 24 hrs, from sleeping
at least once-a-month....i abstain from eating food, drink only little water

to me, a torturous situation would be to indulge in distilled liquor or ingesting any red-meat

perhaps, anyone can define torture, but it would be biased to your cultural heritages...

other than the 'pain-of-death' final & fatal torture

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I see your point, but the US will never target civillians as terrorists do, we will never behead people as terrorists do, and we are certainly not stupid enough to comit suicide bombings when we have stealth aircraft that can get us there drop bigger bombs and get us back to base in time to catch monday night football and have a few beers.

as for your first 2 questions - I suport both murder and assasinations if they are done to people that mean myself, my country or our allies harm.

if you search the site, you will find a good deal of evidence which suggests the beheading was done by white people. go read the nick berg thread. there are pictures and in depth analysis of audio, logical and visual characteristics of the video.

the u.s. constantly targets civilians. war is hell, you know.

i believe the new world order is already here, and all this strife is just a puppet show to move the will of the masses. i think if people would read more, they would certainly ALL see the patterns. many do, already. some, like george orwell, saw the patterns during the second world war.
when you support murder and assassinations, that makes it 'okay' for 'them', too. do you think murder and assassination is 'okay'? if america wants the 'high moral ground', they'll have to stop murdering babies, using napalm, lying to the people through the media propoganda machine, torturing people, and pulling the constitution out from under 'we the people'.

people think we live in the old west, or something. the problems of this world will not be solved with violence and intimidation. the only thing that ever stopped a war was the will of the people. if every newspaper and broadcast facility in the world had the headline, 'world peace achieved! universal truce and cease fire called by all world leaders', there would be no more war.
the real war is the war for truth. a shame so few people are willing to make the effort to 'enlist'.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by billybob]

The fact that the United States government is now "accepting" or "allowing" evidence obtained through the use of torture goes against the very values it claims to uphold.

U.S. Department Of State

November 4, 2002

The United States' Commitment To Fight Torture

The U.S. Commitment: The United States condemns unequivocally the despicable practice of torture. We have fought to eliminate it around the world. Political will is critical. The United States has led international efforts to put pressure on governments to publicly condemn torture; enact legislation; investigate and prosecute abusive officials; train law enforcement officers and medical personnel, and provide compensation and rehabilitation for victims.

source

The President himself has stated that torture is unacceptable on more than one occaision, and will "investigate and prosecute all acts of torture and undertake to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment in all territory under our jurisdiction,"

As stated by the President of the United States

June 26, 2003

The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy. I further urge governments to join America and others in supporting torture victims' treatment centers, contributing to the UN Fund for the Victims of Torture, and supporting the efforts of non-governmental organizations to end torture and assist its victims.

source

and again in June this year,

As stated by the President of the United States

June 26, 2004

Today, on United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States reaffirms its commitment to the worldwide elimination of torture. The non-negotiable demands of human dignity must be protected without reference to race, gender, creed, or nationality. Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right, and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.

source

Just ten days before the Presidents UN speach, an amendment offered by Senator Dick Durbin codifying the United States position on torture was approved without objection by the Senate.

DURBIN AMENDMENT CODIFYING THE UNITED STATES POSITION ON TORTURE ADOPTED BY SENATE

June 16, 2004

"It is vitally important that Congress affirm the United States' commitment not to engage in torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment," said Durbin. "In the age of terrorism, we may be tempted by the notion that torture is justified. Our enemies certainly do not respect any rules in their relentless quest to kill Americans. But this nation's commitment to principle, even during difficult times, is what distinguishes us from the terrorists we fight. There are some lines that we will not cross. Torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment are inconsistent with the principles of liberty and the rule of law that underpin our democracy. To sacrifice this principle would grant the terrorists a valuable victory at our expense."

source

So by allowing the use of evidence obtained by torture, is this how the President is "leading this fight by example"?

What happened to "The non-negotiable demands of human dignity must be protected without reference to race, gender, creed, or nationality"

There is NO nation in existence today who does not utilize some form of "torture." none.

On the contrary, we dont torture folk in any official capacity in Australia, or abroad. might be a few phycos as in any military outfit, but we dont condone it, or sanction it! Aussies beleive in decency and fair play, even in war!

If there's such a thing as a sin then torture has to be at or near the top of all sins.

Out of all the things done by the U.S. the torture of prisoners is the one that really bothers me. It is the gang mentality of abusing another human being while they're completely under your physical control. It's just really sick and any system that supports torture is sick. The idea that the prisoners put themselves there so they deserve whatever they get - is really disgusting.

That said, I believe if there was specific compelling information that a person had information that could possibly save the lives of many - I think we could make an exception. The only problem with having an exception available, is evil people just always seem find a way to abuse exceptions. Thus in order to have an exception tortures would have to be fully documented, to keep the evil ones in check.

I believe torture happens everyday & not for the purposes of extracting information, but to satisfy the sick needs of those who place themselves in a postition to be torturing.


[edit on 5-12-2004 by outsider]