Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: stumason

Ok, fair enough, you're anti-west (that much is obvious - "military party line" "imperialism") but Russia neutral.... Okey dokey!

Nope, not anti-west either. I am anti-MIC and anti-imperialism though.

I imagine they'll match, like for like, the equipment Russia has been supplying for months now.....

OK there's something we can agree on.

With escalation from both sides Ukraine will pay the largest price.

I'm sure the US is also not currently preparing to boost weapon shipments to Ukraine either but if they do those weapons will be nice and fluffy non-WMD style that only kill people in small groups. Just a few hundred at a time so we don't hurt the infrastructure too bad.

a reply to: Bassago

Artillery 155mm, Grads and even Smerch are being accumulated outside Donetsk. Rebels do not have any fixed or concentrated positions so against whom will these be used? These are mostly unguided type shells and rockets which can kill and hurts 100s of civilians easily.

Russia needs to supply in truckloads of MANPADs, mortars, grenade launchers and anti tank rockets if it has not done so already. An unofficial no-fly zone via air defense missiles will help the rebels in putting in a good stand and negate junta's firepower advantage. The rebels need to be fluidly mobile carrying handheld weapons that can prove effective from even 2-3 kms.

Donetsk has to hold well.

originally posted by: victor7
Artillery 155mm, Grads and even Smerch are being accumulated outside Donetsk. Rebels do not have any fixed or concentrated positions so against whom will these be used? These are mostly unguided type shells and rockets which can kill and hurts 100s of civilians easily.

Pure conjecture on your part which flies in the face of what we see from various sources - rebels have set up roadblocks, checkpoints etc and reporters from a variety of outlets have been to speak to rebel leaders in their HQ's. They have a wide variety of hardware, from BTR-60's, GRAD launchers to T-72's, which must mean they must have fixed positions.

originally posted by: victor7
Russia needs to supply in truckloads of MANPADs, mortars, grenade launchers and anti tank rockets if it has not done so already.

They already do

originally posted by: victor7
An unofficial no-fly zone via air defense missiles will help the rebels in putting in a good stand and negate junta's firepower advantage. The rebels need to be fluidly mobile carrying handheld weapons that can prove effective from even 2-3 kms.

Junta? What, the democratically elected President and his cabinet, made up of MP's from the 2012 Parliamentary election which is recognised by Russia? More hyperbole... I'm going to have to get my thesaurus out so I don't use that word too much...

a reply to: victor7

An unofficial no-fly zone via air defense missiles will help the rebels in putting in a good stand and negate junta's firepower advantage. The rebels need to be fluidly mobile carrying handheld weapons that can prove effective from even 2-3 kms.

Sure Ukraine is going to give a no fly zone so the people trying to take part of their country have a fighting chance, so now that's the funniest thing I have read all morning .

Russia isn't going to be giving the separatists those type of weapons again, as they see how they screwed up with MH 17 and they can't have that problem again.

Putin may be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

originally posted by: Bassago
Really? That was one of the first things on their agenda. Not sure if it was passed or not but it's a good indicator of the mindset in Kiev.

On the Russian language. The bill that you are referring to never signed in to law. The bill sought to revoke an earlier bill (2012) which allowed languages to be declared official if spoken by 10% of the population. This resulted in the Russian language being considered an official language across swathes of Ukraine. There was nothing to prevent the use of Russian.

The language of Ukraine is highly politicised, not least because in the Soviet era (i.e. prior to 1991) the Russian overlords attempted force a decline in usage of Ukrainian - and all - minority languages.

originally posted by: Bassago
Which is what I suspect is the west's ultimate goal in this bloody fiasco. From there they will most likely invade Crimea as well. If they accomplish all that they will then have another Russian bordering nation they can park their ICBMs on and increase their control.

War, war and more war. It won't happen and all evidence to date shows apathy from the West, with the exception of economic sanctions. NATO is a collection of nations who would not do what you describe. Anyway, ICBMs are traditionally parked on another continent. Putin has set up Russia to be economically disadvantaged for a decade, or more, but shells will not fly from NATO.

Regards

a reply to: stumason

They have a wide variety of hardware, from BTR-60's, GRAD launchers to T-72's, which must mean they must have fixed positions.

Fixed positions for these? what are you smoking? ever heard of things like wheels?

discussing matters with you people like meddling with illiterate village grand mommies !!

a reply to: victor7

You don't drive around armoured vehicles all the time!

In fact, if your on the defensive, standard doctrine for most armoured forces would be to dig in, hulls down and await the enemy - not drive around, burning fuel for everyone to see! Artillery, especially the types we've seen so far, cannot be fired on the move anyway, so they'll need to be in a fixed location.

In fact, given the irregular, but well equipped, nature of the rebels, I expect they would have pre-prepared positions around important towns/objectives and seek to ambush where possible with a form of elastic defence. Draw the enemy in to your positions, flank and ambush...

a reply to: victor7

discussing matters with you people like meddling with illiterate village grand mommies !!

So because you can't actually understand much of what is being said you resort to name calling...Classy move.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: victor7

You don't drive around armoured vehicles all the time!

In fact, if your on the defensive, standard doctrine for most armoured forces would be to dig in, hulls down and await the enemy - not drive around, burning fuel for everyone to see! Artillery, especially the types we've seen so far, cannot be fired on the move anyway, so they'll need to be in a fixed location.

In fact, given the irregular, but well equipped, nature of the rebels, I expect they would have pre-prepared positions around important towns/objectives and seek to ambush where possible with a form of elastic defence. Draw the enemy in to your positions, flank and ambush...

This is one hundred percent correct. Although the problem for the rebels is they can not just slip into villiages and be hid after an ambush so they can sneak out later and hit Ukraines forces in rear because the locals want nothing to do with them. So they have to fall back like a conventional force from one prepared position to the next.

a reply to: MrSpad



Indeed - which is what we have been seeing as well. After the initial Government assault, followed by some ambushes and heavy casualties, the rebels are inevitably pushed out of whatever village/town they were in, on to the next one.

Looking at maps of the region, it seems the Government forces are pressing from 3 sides, slowly squeezing them. Personally, I'd look to cut off access to the border and squeeze them further, but I can understand their hesitance in committing forces for this as Russia has been shown to be quite willing to use their own artillery from over the border itself. They certainly don't want to come under fire from Russia, then some gun-ho field commander fires back and that is all the pretext Russia needs to send over it's own tanks......

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: victor7

You don't drive around armoured vehicles all the time!

In fact, if your on the defensive, standard doctrine for most armoured forces would be to dig in, hulls down and await the enemy - not drive around, burning fuel for everyone to see! Artillery, especially the types we've seen so far, cannot be fired on the move anyway, so they'll need to be in a fixed location.

In fact, given the irregular, but well equipped, nature of the rebels, I expect they would have pre-prepared positions around important towns/objectives and seek to ambush where possible with a form of elastic defence. Draw the enemy in to your positions, flank and ambush...

Dig in? did you learn this term from US war on Iraq? Even the artillery these days is 'shoot and scoot'.

The moment you are under fire you move your positions.

Your logic is not at all surprising, in to provide cover for "shelling the civilians". Donetsk is a big city, one cannot expect the invader to do the at random shelling. If done so, that would be a war crime and more so that rebels are not getting any support from those in the plain clothes.

a reply to: Bassago

A weapon of mass destruction is nuclear chemical or Biological. While the Scarab can be nuclear it is usually not. Since the warhead would be 100 kt it'd be pretty noticable. 1/2 t of TNT is not a WMD.

a reply to: victor7

The word Nazi does not mean "Government you don't like."

a reply to: FosterIgnorance

The word Nazi does not mean "Government you don't like."

It does if your Russia.

It seems lots of ground has been covered in last few days by the Junta army. Soon Donetsk will be cut off from Lughansk.

Russian artillery has maximum range of around 36-40 kms. No good to stop the advancing forces that are good 100 kms away.

Time for Russia to send in 'in and out' helicopter support for the rebels or drive in the self propelled artillery or Grads inside Ukraine territory to provide adequate support.

originally posted by: FosterIgnorance
a reply to: victor7

The word Nazi does not mean "Government you don't like."

It does mean Nazi if the 'government is being a prostitute to the NWO cabal'.

Don't despair !! your types 'will pay' soon and heavily for not understanding the NWO agenda and thus supporting them.

a reply to: victor7

Don't despair !! your types 'will pay' soon and heavily for not understanding the NWO agenda and thus supporting them.

And when you say your types what exactly do you mean, so I can be on the look out for them.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: stumason

More hyperbole from the pro-Russian crowd

Your assumptions are once again incorrect. I am not "pro-Russian" at all. Russia-neutral would be accurate. Why you may have mistakenly come to that conclusion as many do when people don't toe the western military party line is that they simply do not trust the intentions of the DoD and Pentagon or NATO but especially US MIC enforced imperialism.

So you believe NATO has not expanded militarily into many of the post Soviet states,that they are not trying to expand into Ukraine and they have no desire to ring Russia (just like Iran,) OK then.

I'm sure the US is also not currently preparing to boost weapon shipments to Ukraine either but if they do those weapons will be nice and fluffy non-WMD style that only kill people in small groups. Just a few hundred at a time so we don't hurt the infrastructure too bad.

It's quite interesting how Pentagon advisors have been instructing the Ukrainian forces in Kiev, and now the Pentagon says they will train National Guard units in California starting next year.

Why would NATO directly intervene when they have already constructed a proxy army of conscripts and fanatics?

originally posted by: Vovin
It's quite interesting how Pentagon advisors have been instructing the Ukrainian forces in Kiev, and now the Pentagon says they will train National Guard units in California starting next year.
Why would NATO directly intervene when they have already constructed a proxy army of conscripts and fanatics?

Do you have some reliable sources? Or are you making it up as you go along?

Ukraine's armed forces use Russian equipment. It is not possible to suddenly start supplying NATO type kit. Ammunition is different, for a start.

Let's hope the end of the insurgency is swiftly accomplished, although the leadership of the pro Russians will doubtlessly end up back in Russia.

Regards

a reply to: Vovin

I believe Russia has made a mistake by not recognizing the DPR. This way they could have openly given heavy weapons support including helicopters and fighter planes and the equation on the battlefield would have been a nearly equal match up. Equipment on ground would have also meant that Russian operators could be involved till the time DPR militia is well trained. This mostly for helicopters and planes. Mere $50K can get militia an operating T-72 ready for action.

Still now, several truckloads of MANPADS, RPGs, Landmines, anti tank Kornets, anti material rifles can change the course by severely bogging down the Junta forces. These require not much training and if needed Russian specialists can be smuggled in for efficiency. Even $500 drones can provide militia with good real time intelligence to plan any ambush with high safety and efficiency.

Due to proximity of Russian artillery on the south and east side, the total encirclement of Donetsk and Lugansk should not take place. But that is not enough. More important is to push back the Junta forces from all the sides.