Richard Dawkins under fire for comments about rape

a reply to: uncommitted

This post indicative of the rape mindset that I was talking about. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean I cannot hold an opinion about the seriousness of rape. Women are supposed to be equal to men, not superior. That means my opinion is just as valid on the subject as yours, regardless of what you believe about the crime and the victims. Men get raped too by the way.

a reply to: uncommitted

Having an opinion is dependent on gender?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: VegHead
As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I have to agree with him here.

I don't feel a need to decide whether I agree with him or not. I know violent rape is no fun (been there) and I wouldn't want to be date-raped either, but if I had to choose, I think I'd choose the latter.

So maybe I do think there is some merit in what he says...

Yeah! I was raped by an ex boyfriend. Someone I once had consensual sex with.

Yes, I felt violated and was very pissed off. But, could it have been worse? Absolutely!

What I'm curious about, why the comment? Was he responding to someone else's question?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

This post indicative of the rape mindset that I was talking about. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean I cannot hold an opinion about the seriousness of rape. Women are supposed to be equal to men, not superior. That means my opinion is just as valid on the subject as yours, regardless of what you believe about the crime and the victims. Men get raped too by the way.

Actually, you assume I'm female because I wouldn't consider myself arrogant enough to know what it is like to be violated by rape? You have just kind of answered that question. I'm fully aware that men can also be raped, I assume you wouldn't mind in some scenarios as much as you would in others?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: uncommitted

Having an opinion is dependent on gender?

So, (I'm going to assume for a second you are white, if you are not, forgive me for the assumption). As a white person if you said that anyone who is black shouldn't worry too much about casual racism, you would rightly get a verbal slapping. Do you understand my point?

reply to: uncommitted

True and i would heartily deserve such verbal slapping. However if i said that there are different forms and degrees of racism i think that would be generally agreed. All rape is a terrible crime and that should be anyone's opinion however someone believes that violent rape is additionally bad then their opinion should not automatically be discounted based on their gender. Ps. On very slow phone so sorry for bad grammar

originally posted by: Annee
Yes, I felt violated and was very pissed off. But, could it have been worse? Absolutely!

I was violently raped and his son heard my screams and came running to see what his dad was doing. So, aside from being raped and injured, I carried the guilt of that little boy seeing his dad rape someone because I screamed for help... Would I rather have been raped by an ex-boyfriend who I had had sex with before? You better believe it!

What I'm curious about, why the comment? Was he responding to someone else's question?

I wondered that, too. But the truth is, I don't care enough to look into it. He's a man with an opinion. All this outrage is silly, IMO.

I find this idea of who is qualified or not to discuss varying degrees of damage caused by rape rather puzzling.
Some seem to argue that only those who have researched it in an academic setting are qualified.
Some seem to argue only females can comment about 'male on female' rape, and by the same token only males can comment about 'male on male' rape.
Some even argue that only people who have experienced being raped are allowed to comment about such things.

I suppose the only way I can avoid the classic emotionally charged personal attacks expected in a thread like this is to simply discuss myself, and how I perceive such things relating to my own experiences.

I am a hetrosexual male but it is not unusual for me to visit gay nightclubs on a weekend. The music and atmosphere appeals to me, if only to dance without worrying about bumping into drunken 'white shirted bruiser blokes' who want to fight. The only tiresome side of it is having to say 'ah, no I'm straight' lot's of times.
Anyway, quite a few years ago now in my early 20's I ended up back at an after hours house party and had to fight my way out of the place when it turned nasty as two of the guys coming on to me wouldn't accept my 'no' for an answer.
It was frightening, but I escaped intact and learned from the experience.

I am absolutely sure that I would prefer to wake up after being drugged and raped, without any memory or physical injury, than to be held down by 3 or 4 males who forced themselves on me while ignoring my cries for them to stop.
Now, flame me as much as you liike for having an opinion about what I would prefer to happen to me if I had no choice about it, but to me certainly, forced rape with fear and pain is something I consider a worse experience for me than being raped while drugged unconscious and with no physical injury.

There are varying degrees of all crimes, it is why courts set varying degrees of punishment.
But that is too logical for many people on twatter...and it seems also to be so for many people here on ATS.
Such a pity the emotions seem to kill so many rational arguments.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
reply to: uncommitted

True and i would heartily deserve such verbal slapping. However if i said that there are different forms and degrees of racism i think that would be generally agreed. All rape is a terrible crime and that should be anyone's opinion however someone believes that violent rape is additionally bad then their opinion should not automatically be discounted based on their gender. Ps. On very slow phone so sorry for bad grammar

Now that I can totally agree with. Actually, I think Dawkins is a conceited, arrogant person on the whole, not just for these comments which I'm not sure he had any real impetus to make.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

Academic and author of The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins, has come under public scrutiny after claiming some types of rape are “worse” than others.

A backlash of abuse on Twitter followed a tweet where Dawkins suggested that “mild date rape” is not as bad as violent rape. He goes on to say that anyone who thinks the comparison is an endorsement of date rape should “go away and learn how to think”.

In a preceding tweet, Dawkins attempted to lay the groundwork for his argument by differentiating between “mild pedophilia” [sic] and “violent pedophilia” – framing the provocative statements as a lesson in language and logic.

The Twitter response was swift as users replied to the 73-year-old, accusing him of being a “danger to women” and urging him to “learn compassion”.

Shami Chakrabarti, a spokesperson from The End Violence Against Women Coalition, told The Telegraph that his words were “not merely ignorant but extremely offensive”. “I know there are men of a certain generation who just clunk around on this subject but it’s really not good enough. It sends a very bad signal."

Link

I read this article earlier and am still in disbelief. I cannot fathom how somebody's words can be so misconstrued, and how people can take such great offence at the logical views of another individual. Radical feminists on social media have created a monster out of these comments and it's scary to think where we are headed if their responses are considered reasonable.

Can different types of murder be worse than others? Yes. Can different kinds of assaults be worse than others. Of course. So why is rape any different? Why is the crime of rape so emotionally-charged that logic and reason cannot be utilised when discussing it?

Stories like these only perpetuate the notion that rape is used as a political tool by radical feminists.

It seems not only right wing Christians can say stupid stuff about rape. Sad, really.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
But the truth is, I don't care enough to look into it. He's a man with an opinion. All this outrage is silly, IMO.

I agree.

And ---- this is someone who is going to be attacked negatively just because of who he is.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
It seems not only right wing Christians can say stupid stuff about rape. Sad, really.

At least he wasn't trying to pass off his opinion as some kind of scientific fact. There is a difference.

a reply to: uncommitted

That's a loaded question. Let's start with an example. Which do you consider worse, male rape or female rape?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DarknStormy

Crimes are sub categorised all the time. All rape is a crime however circumstances and intent are still relavent. At no point did Richard Dawkins, Myself or any other poster say there is "nice rape".

In the case of Murder (Intentional killing) and Manslaughter (Accidental), yes I can see where crimes can be sub-categorized but when it comes to rape, you don't accidentally sexually assault someone...

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Who could possibly say that male on male rape is any different to male on female rape?
I have been blackmailed into sex by a couple of females during my life and really didn't want to do it, but fear of the consequences of not doing it forced me to perform. I closed my eyes and pretended they were some other girl.
Is that rape as well? It was unpleasant and my compliance was through fear, but I moved on relatively undamaged emotionally.

As I said in my earlier post above, being held down by 3 or 4 males and raped while they ignored my cries to stop would be far more damaging to me. Waking up after being drugged and raped without any memory or physical injury would be less damaging to me than being forced while conscious.

a reply to: DarknStormy

Do you then believe that the punishment for someone who drunkenly has sex with someone who is even more drunk (and therefore unable to give informed consent) should be same as violent rape at knife point? Both are correctly crimes but i think there is a difference and should be treated as such legally. Rape laws vary considerably from country to country and what is rape one place is sexual assault elsewhere. I am not sure a one size fits all approach to sexual crime works either in punishment or prevention (education).

a reply to: grainofsand

Well that's what I'm trying to get at. I said on the page 2 that there are different types of murder or assault with different levels of severity. That doesn't mean that those crimes are reprehensible no matter the severity, just that some types of them are worse than others. Why should rape be any different?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm in agreement with my 'female on male' examples.
One was a 50 something female company director who used power and dominance to force me to comply through fear of losing my job when I was 17.
The other one was the same as me in her early 20's but her power was through the darker environment I was living in then and violent men she also 'controlled' and what lies she would tell them if I didn't have sex with her...meaning a major beating and/or worse for me. I complied through fear alone in both cases, and took myself into a magical imagined experience of being with someone else just so I could perform because they were forcing me to.

Turn it around and make me female and them male, the fear of consequences preventing someone from resisting is exactly the same in my opinion. Fear is fear, no matter the coercion, threats or genders involved.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
It seems not only right wing Christians can say stupid stuff about rape. Sad, really.

At least he wasn't trying to pass off his opinion as some kind of scientific fact. There is a difference.

I just recall the hysterical hullaballo about the that "legitimate rape" crap comment a while back and yet Dawkins gets a pass for saying something just as insensitive and ignorant. If this was Mitt Romney saying the exact same thing, I think there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth in this thread.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

That's a loaded question. Let's start with an example. Which do you consider worse, male rape or female rape?

Are you really asking that as a serious question? Really? Violation of anyone is a sickening crime, I really cannot believe you think that is a question that deserves an answer.