Alternative Union of Europe

Originally posted by Pelayo
But the EU will keep running with or without the UK.

You sure about that, hows the EU going to replace the funding???

If the Brit people don�t feel themselves satisfied by the EU, they should look for a solution instead of keeping stuck saying �I want to go out�.

France and Germany hold the true power of the EU, the UK on its own can't out vote or influence the EU enough to make any changes that will benefit the UK enough.

�Not true, NATO has safe guarded western europe against the war machine of the USSR.� Err�.Not true Wizard. Look at the quantities, qualities and deployments of armament during the cold war. Look for who took the decisions. USA has safe guarded western Europe against the URSS.

America is part of NATO of course it has safe guarded Europe.

NATO is the best instrument that the Americans have for keeping Europe under their military boot during the next decades.

You talk of America as if it a evil military power that craves power over Europe.

as unique as the French or the Spanish or the Portuguese or the Dutch people is. The point is that the Brit people are more distrustful than the other Europeans.

its our nature to be distrustful......

The economic global war, the war of the alliances, the war of the international influences towards countries that you can not just attack by military force, i.e. China, USA, India, Japan�

Economic global war , a war that doesn't need to happen, its the greed of China, US, EU that that will bring around such a war....it is not set in stone, such a war is proberly desired by the EU so it can unify its vision.

You are wrong. The Roman empire was a global Euro-Mediterranean super power.

So you'd be happy to return to a Roman style Europe?

Oh, the different languages. In Spain there do exist 4 different languages. How many different languages were talked all across the Roman or the Spanish or the Brit empire?

Whats language got to do with it?

The reasons of the style �Europe will not because it never had�� or �We will be because we always have been� and �France is not an ally because Napoleon attacked us� are just a ballast.

I don't care what France did in the past, i look to the future.

The EU is the �first time ever� for a lot of things.

Such as.....

this is a matter of perception. The EU is not a rope that bind me, but I want to be part of the rope that keeps united the EU.

The EU does not unite Europe...

Well, do you really think that a war between France and Germany, or Spain and UK is a realistic possibility nowdays?

There isn't even a slim possibilty that a war could break out...

You are denying the possibility of the change.

Change isn't always good...

Ok the things had been this way during centuries, but this doesn�t mean that the things will keep this way during the next centuries. This is what many Americans would like, but now the things are changing.

Why do you keep acting as if America is the enemy???

And in my opinion you neglect such a reality.

I don't neglect it, i fear it....i know what the EU will cause and i know that in the long term it will be bad for europe.

Funnily enough Wizard how do you feel when the criticisms you make of the EU are applied to the UK?

How do you respond to the Scot, Irish or Welsh who say they are being dominated and submerged by mere English-ness dressed up in it's alternative name 'British'?

....and what do you say to the loony English fringe that claim England would be better off alone?

Well that is a nice idea wizard , but the idea of a EDF is a nice idea in my eyes. It would stop us going into places like iraq or anywhere we didnt bolong.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Funnily enough Wizard how do you feel when the criticisms you make of the EU are applied to the UK?

I'm not sure what you mean, explain...

How do you respond to the Scot, Irish or Welsh who say they are being dominated and submerged by mere English-ness dressed up in it's alternative name 'British'?

....and what do you say to the loony English fringe that claim England would be better off alone?

The answers you seek can hopefully be seen on my website:

Link to Site

Originally posted by UK Wizard
I'm not sure what you mean, explain...

- Well, ok, the UK demonstrates fraud, corruption and inefficiency from time to time, it acts purely in the interests of the UK, the dominant 'power' within the UK, England, has attempted - murderously - at various times - over several centuries - to extinguish the identities of the other 'home nations' and to impose it's political will upon them.

Yet you still see value in the UK?

England, has attempted - murderously - at various times - over several centuries - to extinguish the identities of the other 'home nations' and to impose it's political will upon them.

Oh no the evil England, destorying the heritage and identity of all
Well i can asure you I'm not like that, I believe in celebrating our differences and individual heritage.....along with the unity that the UK has brought.

Yet you still see value in the UK?

Of course not, but why the hell should we have the waste of our own Government and the EU Government

�You sure about that, hows the EU going to replace the funding???�

Came on Wizard!! The EU is virtually running without the UK in many aspects. Look the euro. Loosing the UK would be a great lost, but this would not be the end of the EU if Germany, France, Italy and Spain (in arrow) keep on working.

�France and Germany hold the true power of the EU, the UK on its own can't out vote or influence the EU enough to make any changes that will benefit the UK enough.�

Sure, but why is it happening? Because the UK doesn�t get involved in the EU as much as Germany and France do. It seems to me that you want for the UK a compromise of eternal supremacy. Well, this is impossible at all. No one country in the EU will sign such a compromise. As I told you, I would largely appreciate more involvement in the EU from the UK. But I never would accept having the UK as my �eternal chief�.

What you can be sure about is that if the UK go out of the EU, in some decades the influence of the UK around the World will be null. Now the UK has the power, so the UK can lead many negotiations within the EU. This could dramatically change in some years.

�You talk of America as if it a evil military power that craves power over Europe.�

You can be right at this point. Sometimes my words are quite ambiguous. But actually I don�t see America as an enemy. This would be stupid. America is not an evil but the American supremacy requires the domination of Europe. And I am not agree at this point. I would prefer the domination of Europe over America. I don�t want an imperialist European superpower, but when you have the power, you can be just. In my opinion America is not a just superpower. Europe would work better, or at least no so bad.

�So you'd be happy to return to a Roman style Europe�

Of course not. I just quoted on example of diverse Superpower.

�I don't care what France did in the past, i look to the future.�

So, why don�t you trust in your European fellows?

�I fear�� The fear is the worst thing that you can feel when you must do the correct choice. I have the impression that too many Brits fear Europe.

�Such as.....�

Such as an united superpower made by an alliance of different countries with different Histories and languages without any precedent in all the History of the Human Being. The EU is the most amazing example of ex-enemies working together like brothers.

�Change isn't always good...�

Change is always good. Otherwise we would keep painting deer inside caves.

�Why do you keep acting as if America is the enemy�

You are right. Sometimes my words can be easily misunderstood. America is not an enemy. Is the rival to be defeated (in the sportive meaning) by Europe.

I am ready to do this. I don�t want the American protection anymore. I want America wishing the European protection and asking us before acting around the world instead of doing what they want when they want where they want, as is happening right now.

Originally posted by Pelayo
Came on Wizard!! The EU is virtually running without the UK in many aspects. Look the euro. Loosing the UK would be a great lost, but this would not be the end of the EU if Germany, France, Italy and Spain (in arrow) keep on working.

Maybe not the end, but the UK leaving the EU would put a financial strain on the EU.

It seems to me that you want for the UK a compromise of eternal supremacy.

What????

What you can be sure about is that if the UK go out of the EU, in some decades the influence of the UK around the World will be null.

The same would happen from being in the EU, the UK would be but a small part, and who says the UK would weaken outside the EU.

So, why don�t you trust in your European fellows?

I trust in my European fellows as you put it...but what i do not trust is the EU.

I have the impression that too many Brits fear Europe.

We don't fear Europe, we fear what the EU will cause in Europe.

Such as an united superpower made by an alliance of different countries with different Histories and languages without any precedent in all the History of the Human Being. The EU is the most amazing example of ex-enemies working together like brothers.

Didn't the UN get there first :
@@:

Change is always good. Otherwise we would keep painting deer inside caves.

thats a rather limited out look on it, Hitler was change and he was sure as hell bad change.

Is the rival to be defeated (in the sportive meaning) by Europe.

No it is a ally, defeating it would only cause problems.

I am ready to do this. I don�t want the American protection anymore. I want America wishing the European protection and asking us before acting around the world instead of doing what they want when they want where they want, as is happening right now.

So what you really want is for America to fall and Europe to take its place.

Two questions for you Pelayo and you sminkeypinkey.

In your opinion what is the main reason for the existence of the EU.

Where do you see the EU in 20 years time.

And why limit such a alliance to Europe....why not the world


[edit on 28-12-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Two questions for you Pelayo and you sminkeypinkey.

In your opinion what is the main reason for the existence of the EU.

Where do you see the EU in 20 years time.

And why limit such a alliance to Europe....why not the world


[edit on 28-12-2004 by UK Wizard]

- 1) To foster genuine peaceful coexistance within Europe, a notoriously difficult thing to achieve which the EU helps us do admirably and which the system of independant competitive nation states repeatedly failed so utterly to do.

- 2) Expanded to around 550 millions. Encompassing all of Europe and including Turkey with good relations with most of the world except for the USA which is working very hard to inflate Europe to be the 'threat' they seem to need......excepty our military spending levels will make this idea laughable.

- 3) The EU already engages with the world in many areas and with many bodies. The WTO for example and the memebers of the EU as individual members of such things as the UN security council or the various 'G' economic bodies.

OK, here's some questions for you Wizard.


Why cannot our previously staggeringly troubled part of the world look to sorting itself out; why should the EU not concern itself with Europe alone?

Why should the EU lose sight of it's focus and purpose, beyond the work still outstanding and necessary to be completed in Europe and wander off to concentrate on limitless global quests - especially given the 'wider' current 'climate' for any kind of 'UN' type action?
The EU is not the UN and was never designed to be, we act with other institutions and bosies for that kind of thing surely?.

Why should the EU be criticised for this.....as I said before why not just totally rubbish the UK or junk the UK for 'failing' on this?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- 2) good relations with most of the world except for the USA

Please don't tell me your one of these anti-US nutters , your judging America on the basis of the current administation.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Why cannot our previously staggeringly troubled part of the world look to sorting itself out; why should the EU not concern itself with Europe alone?

Because it is selfish and isolationist, Europe is not the only part of the world that matters, it is but a small part, to say stuff the rest of the world and concentrate on just Europe is madness to the highest degree.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey Why should the EU lose sight of it's focus and purpose, beyond the work still outstanding and necessary to be completed in Europe and wander off to concentrate on limitless global quests - especially given the 'wider' current 'climate' for any kind of 'UN' type action?

Why should the EU exist at all, when there is limitless potential for a more powerful and more productive international alliance, the EU is limited to Europe...but the UN is limited to Earth....sorry to answer a question with a question

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Why should the EU be criticised for this.....as I said before why not just totally rubbish the UK or junk the UK for 'failing' on this?

Every organisation has criticisms, every person has criticisms, both the UK and the EU are not above this.

Right, here are my responses

�In your opinion what is the main reason for the existence of the EU.�

1 To improve our security, or quality of life and our stability.

2 Avoid the absolute irrelevance of our respective countries when we go alone in the Worlds affairs, falling under the USA, China, India, etc. Having the power we also will be able to change a little bit our unjust World.

3 Make our countries being the engine of the Human advance and development on the Earth.

4 The protection of the ancient and precious European common culture, which is being destroyed (in the cultural way) by the American culture.

�Where do you see the EU in 20 years time�

Being a superpower able to stand in front of the USA, acting as an equilibrant force able to stop the unilateralist tendencies of the USA and comparable in many aspects with the USA.

But I don�t know if we will reach such goal in 20 or in 40 years. It depends on whether the UK gets more involved in the European issues or leaves the EU.

�And why limit such a alliance to Europe....why not the world�

This could be a nice goal to meet in the next centuries. Nowdays, your suggestion is just an Utopia. This would be impossible at all, because of the hard differences between cultures, the hard instability in a huge part of the world, the great gap between Human well being that unfortunately does exist in the World, and that this would kill the competitive spirit, which nowdays moves the world and the Human development.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Please don't tell me your one of these anti-US nutters

, your judging America on the basis of the current administation.

- Hardly Wizard. Like many many Europeans I have many US relations (as well as relations in continental Europe and Australia), why would I 'hate' my own family?

I am a US realist.
I do not get all misty-eyed and mushy brained when it comes to the USA, I know full well that they invariably act in their interests which are not necessarily the same as ours.

Because it is selfish and isolationist, Europe is not the only part of the world that matters, it is but a small part, to say stuff the rest of the world and concentrate on just Europe is madness to the highest degree.

- No it isn't. It is realistic and to recognise ones' limitations as they are right now.

The global alliance you seem to desire will come one day I am sure but not for some time yet. The first part of establishing a world that recognises it's common interests and acts upon them is a series of regions which can do similar.

In my opinion we are better off learning how to walk properly first before we waste enormous amounts of time and effort trying to run right from the start.

Why should the EU exist at all, when there is limitless potential for a more powerful and more productive international alliance, the EU is limited to Europe...but the UN is limited to Earth....sorry to answer a question with a question

- The EU exists because rather than continually fighting each other every few decades it was thought best to find a way to stop this and act upon our manifest common interests.

Every organisation has criticisms, every person has criticisms, both the UK and the EU are not above this.

- ......and simply because there may be criticisms of any particular institution - even if some are accurate and true - surely that does not invalidate the entire enterprise either, hmmm?

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Oh no the evil England, destorying the heritage and identity of all

- Were you one of the multitude slaughtered or exiled for daring to oppose English rule it mightn't seem so funny Wizard; it is a matter of historical fact.

Not, like some enormously unlikely things people seem so bothered about in relation to a free and united Europe, a fear of what might happen in future.

.......why do you think many Scots, Welsh and Irish people to this day harbour deep and genuine anti-English feelings?

Well i can asure you I'm not like that, I believe in celebrating our differences and individual heritage.....along with the unity that the UK has brought.

- Glad to hear it - although I'm not sure how deeply ingrained the 'chocolate box' version of Britain actually runs throughout this land.

Of course not, but why the hell should we have the waste of our own Government and the EU Government

- Because despite the element of 'waste' it is worth it - on so many 'levels' - for us all in the end.
This 'waste' you see, or have read about - even if 100% true - is but a fraction compared to the overall wealth generation created by the EU.

You keep mentioning a 'parochialism' as a criticism of the EU.
You seem to think the EU should be more than just about Europe.

OK, consider this if you really are interested in seeing the world coming together to be freely united. What about those who have not even thought of coming together yet?

I suggest it will only happen because of the smaller and medium sizerd unions - like the UK and the EU - showing those that had not considered the idea that there are undeniable benefits and value within unities and that these collective benefits can be sustained despite the natural(?) selfish instincts of the disparate parts that constitute them.

Like I said, walk before you try running......we stand less of a chance of falling flat on our faces that way.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
.......why do you think many Scots, Welsh and Irish people to this day harbour deep and genuine anti-English feelings?

Because they are ignorant, try to live in the present not the past

a fraction compared to the overall wealth generation created by the EU.

So without the EU this wealth would automatically disappear would it?
and your reply will be yes, and my next question will be why?

OK, consider this if you really are interested in seeing the world coming together to be freely united. What about those who have not even thought of coming together yet?

Same could be said about those not wishing to join the EU.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Because they are ignorant, try to live in the present not the past

- So you just write all those people off as just merely ignorant?
Some may be but all?!
How about attempting to understand their view-point instead of ignoring it?
How about even noticing - and being seen to notice and recogniose - the hurt inflicted by our English imperialism within these isles?

Clearly it isn't something simply and only in the past as it resonates across the British Isles to this day.

So without the EU this wealth would automatically disappear would it?
and your reply will be yes, and my next question will be why?

- OK, yes.....

....and why?

Because you cannot expect to continue to receive all the benefits of membership of the 'club' without being a member of the club.

.....and anyone who imagines differently is either a liar or fooling themselves.

Same could be said about those not wishing to join the EU.

- Well it could but fortunately just because a minority here refuse to even see nevermind acknowledge the benefits of EU membership does not mean we have to alter our national economic 'course' because of them.

We'll listen to any valid criticism but considering the complaint of many of these people resides in nothing less than a fear of a return of continental fascism (which is perfectly understandable in the older people here - but what were you saying about living in the past?); dellusions about some kind of return of empire and a golden age that actually never was (usually imagined around the mid - late 1950's.......althought I saw that evil cretin Griffin from the BNP claiming 'our' best time to emulate was around Elizabeth 1st's time!) or people who dream of traitoring this country in return for mere state-hood within the USA (.....which is pretty hysterical, my God, if you think a sizable amount of people have concerns about the EU!?).

Anything in there you really want to be spending too much time over? Cos I can't see it myself.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
How about even noticing - and being seen to notice and recogniose - the hurt inflicted by our English imperialism within these isles?

i can't go back an rewrite history, what am i supposed to do!

Because you cannot expect to continue to receive all the benefits of membership of the 'club' without being a member of the club.

What benefits are there?

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i can't go back an rewrite history, what am i supposed to do!

- 'We' could properly recognise what was done for a start.

For example, how many English kids are educated about the Highland clearances or the various cultural repression that has gone on across the British Isles through centuries?

Rather than ignore or pretend it didn't really happen (or it wasn't that bad and is now just being exaggerated by trouble-makers intent on wrecking the UK) we could face up to what was really done and at least remember it properly, officially and with regret.

What benefits are there?

- There are massive benefits to us.

To name but a few - we benefit in terms of trade, we can undertake enterprises we could not afford alone thanks to shared costs, we benefit from the shared research/science base, we have free access to the single biggest single market in the world - without tarrif penalty.

There are many benefits.

(Not forgetting the single biggest benefit of them all......thanks to the EU Europe is no longer a collection of competing independant nation states heading for the usual hugely damaging and expensive war(s) which 'we' had made such a feature of this part of the world for centuries.)

Why not research the matter if you are interested?

[edit on 2-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Because they are ignorant, try to live in the present not the past

Thanks i love you too man...
Many are angry at what happened and dont like the way it turned out.
Also as i have said in other threads the UN at its current SOP and staff are seen to the world as untrustworthy, we need to solve this if the UN is to work.

[edit on 2-1-2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp
Thanks i love you too man...
Many are angry at what happened and dont like the way it turned out.

Are we on about the EU or my comment on how the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish are ignorant about British unity and history

Originally posted by UK Wizard

Are we on about the EU or my comment on how the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish are ignorant about British unity and history

Your comment.....