Natural Disaster, Human Error or Act of God?

a reply to: Logarock

So when strike hits church (or any other temple) - what is God trying to tell us?

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LOL, interesting points, fellow Michiganian (or Michigander, depending which one you preffer ) ...

About 'god works in misterious way' - I am more alongside with late George Carlin:

“Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man ... living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money.”

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: Logarock

So when strike hits church (or any other temple) - what is God trying to tell us?

inapcache.boston.com...

news.bbcimg.co.uk...

i.huffpost.com...

media2.s-nbcnews.com...< br />
LOL, interesting points, fellow Michiganian (or Michigander, depending which one you preffer

) ...

I tend to think that God wouldn't break his own laws of nature unless it was necessary and I doubt that it would ever be necessary.

Just want to make it clear SuperFrog, you replied to Logarock who is from Ohio, I'm the one from Michigan who started the thread. I prefer Michigander for my state label.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
I tend to think that God wouldn't break his own laws of nature unless it was necessary and I doubt that it would ever be necessary.

Just want to make it clear SuperFrog, you replied to Logarock who is from Ohio, I'm the one from Michigan who started the thread. I prefer Michigander for my state label.

Firstly, my bad. It took wrong post for reply, it should be your OP post, thus reference to Michigan.

So basically, you have your own interpretation what God would/should/has done. My assumption is that you are christian, so I wonder how do you look at God killing all firstborns in Egypt according to Bible? How do you justify killings of innocent children for sins of their fathers? What law that would be?

Here, bit more of George Carlin, and his view of God...

a reply to: SuperFrog

God killing babies is from the Torah, that is the Jewish Bible. As a Christian, I'd rather believe what was spoken by Christ first, then the apostles and some of the prophets referenced by Christ second and third.

They may have used the results of a plague as evidence of God's will against the Egyptians for enslaving them. Even if it were truly an act of God, Moses tried to warn them over and over again, but they wouldn't listen.

But like I posted earlier, I don't think God uses natural disasters to punish people in life. The unrepentant, sinful people in life have a long punishment awaiting them after death, no need to punish them now.

Yes, I have my opinions about what God could do and has done, but what he would or should do is something I couldn't guess.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: SuperFrog

God killing babies is from the Torah, that is the Jewish Bible. As a Christian, I'd rather believe what was spoken by Christ first, then the apostles and some of the prophets referenced by Christ second and third.

God killing babies is in Bible, all of them. Just tell me what Bible are you using.

That is how original mythology have been created - folks telling stories... I would not be surprised that Christ never really existed, and that whole story is copy of Krishna story from Hinduism culture...

Both are believed to be sons of God, since they were divinely conceived
* The birth of both Jesus of Nazareth and Krishna of Dwarka and their God-designed missions were foretold
* Both were born at unusual places — Christ in a lowly manger and Krishna in a prison cell
* Both were divinely saved from death pronouncements
* Evil forces pursued both Christ and Krishna in vain
* Christ is often depicted as a shepherd; Krishna was a cowherd
* Both appeared at a critical time when their respective countries were in a torpid state
* Both died of wounds caused by sharp weapons — Christ by nails and Krishna by an arrow
* The teachings of both are very similar — both emphasize love and peace
* Krishna was often shown as having a dark blue complexion — a color close to that of Christ Consciousness

* hinduism.about.com...

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
They may have used the results of a plague as evidence of God's will against the Egyptians for enslaving them. Even if it were truly an act of God, Moses tried to warn them over and over again, but they wouldn't listen.

With religion is simple - you either believe or not - and it is not something you can pick pocket from, unless you really think that some of those Bible stories are unsound and rather sound like Mythology.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
But like I posted earlier, I don't think God uses natural disasters to punish people in life. The unrepentant, sinful people in life have a long punishment awaiting them after death, no need to punish them now.

And how do we know that what you just said is true? Please elaborate.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuckYes, I have my opinions about what God could do and has done, but what he would or should do is something I couldn't guess.

Interesting... but you know he created world in what, 6 days and took 7th day off?

We have scientific explanations for all weather events on the planet. No, when a weather event hits a populated area and does a lot of destruction, it isn't an act of god. It is just humans being unfortunate to be caught in the path of a weather system. There are SOOO many more people on the planet than in the past, so these weather patterns have a greater chance of hitting civilization. Beforehand, they'd occur and no one would notice or care since they'd happen in the middle of nowhere (of course I'm sure the other animals that lived in those locations were more than a little annoyed about it). Also the "middle of nowhere" used to be a LOT bigger than it is now.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Super Frog,

I can tell you want to debate the Christian religion over other beliefs, that really wasn't my intentions here.

Is there something you want me to say so you can try to tear down my faith? Not going there friend.

Obviously you must believe that nothing happens in our lives that is due to the hateful whims of some vengeful god. If so, then thank you for your point of view. Otherwise, I have no intention of getting into it with anyone over their beliefs vs my own.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: SuperFrog

Super Frog,

I can tell you want to debate the Christian religion over other beliefs, that really wasn't my intentions here.

Is there something you want me to say so you can try to tear down my faith? Not going there friend.

Obviously you must believe that nothing happens in our lives that is due to the hateful whims of some vengeful god. If so, then thank you for your point of view. Otherwise, I have no intention of getting into it with anyone over their beliefs vs my own.

My friend, you got it all wrong. For me all religions are the same, all of them have simple interest in control of population, wishful thinking and many time proven wrong stories that everyone seems to believe. What surprises me is that the same people grow and figure out there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, but just can't figure out rest of it... I have lots of books on mythology, I love to read about history as well, and religious books are on the same shelf with rest of mythology. (and I did read both Bible and Qur'an, as well learn about other religions in religion class in college, such as Hinduism)

As for 'whims of some vengeful god', as soon as you get me some evidence, I will start believing. I, just as most everyone who acknowledge science and science findings require just testable evidence to believe into something being true. It is actually quite simple... So care to provide some evidence of what God did, that you know its true?

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
I tend to think that God wouldn't break his own laws of nature unless it was necessary and I doubt that it would ever be necessary.

Just want to make it clear SuperFrog, you replied to Logarock who is from Ohio, I'm the one from Michigan who started the thread. I prefer Michigander for my state label.

Firstly, my bad. It took wrong post for reply, it should be your OP post, thus reference to Michigan.

So basically, you have your own interpretation what God would/should/has done. My assumption is that you are christian, so I wonder how do you look at God killing all firstborns in Egypt according to Bible? How do you justify killings of innocent children for sins of their fathers? What law that would be?

Frog, its really not something, although it often is, that's really open to my interpretation or that of others.

Now you assume this guy is a christian and that's fair enough but most of the christians that come to ATS are not really Sunday school types or anything. They should be given credit, although they are not most often, for having some capacity for wider vision, listening to criticism ect.

Anyway, your question falls under the very first law.....the law of death and the first promise the law of life. I am just telling you and really not trying to preach, defend or justify anything. The justification for God doing this is apparently far more than man can bear to listen to anyway. If the Egyptians had been smart they would have just put lambs blood on the door and dealt with the realties of what had been happening to them.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: SuperFrog

God killing babies is from the Torah, that is the Jewish Bible. As a Christian, I'd rather believe what was spoken by Christ first, then the apostles and some of the prophets referenced by Christ second and third.

They may have used the results of a plague as evidence of God's will against the Egyptians for enslaving them. Even if it were truly an act of God, Moses tried to warn them over and over again, but they wouldn't listen.

But the plagues were not for enslaving them but for not letting them go. God had ordained their slavery years before. Egypt had permission to enslave but one day the party was over but they just didn't want to give up those salves and let them go. God was even kind enough to send someone to the king and tell him personally that the party was over and the God of the Hebrews wanted His people back at this time. God at that point began to introduce Himself in full not only to the Egyptians but the Hebrews as well. And as it turns out He went through all that trouble for a bunch of ignorant and hard headed slobs. Later He put them in slavery again under the Assyrians and the Babylonians. During those days God actually sent a prophet back down to Egypt to inform them to watch, that He was about to go old school on His own.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: SuperFrog

Super Frog,

I can tell you want to debate the Christian religion over other beliefs, that really wasn't my intentions here.

Is there something you want me to say so you can try to tear down my faith? Not going there friend.

Obviously you must believe that nothing happens in our lives that is due to the hateful whims of some vengeful god. If so, then thank you for your point of view. Otherwise, I have no intention of getting into it with anyone over their beliefs vs my own.

My friend, you got it all wrong. For me all religions are the same, all of them have simple interest in control of population, wishful thinking and many time proven wrong stories that everyone seems to believe. What surprises me is that the same people grow and figure out there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, but just can't figure out rest of it...

I have lots of books on mythology, I love to read about history as well, and religious books are on the same shelf with rest of mythology. (and I did read both Bible and Qur'an, as well learn about other religions in religion class in college, such as Hinduism)

As for 'whims of some vengeful god', as soon as you get me some evidence, I will start believing. I, just as most everyone who acknowledge science and science findings require just testable evidence to believe into something being true. It is actually quite simple... So care to provide some evidence of what God did, that you know its true?

In case you weren't paying attention to what I have been posting, I'll say it again. Although nothing is impossible for an all powerful, omnipotent, creator of the universe, I don' think that creator would have a reason to interfere with the creation. However, since no one can even get close to being truely objective about anything, what I think is meaningless in regards to what really goes on in the universe.

"As for 'whims of some vengeful god', as soon as you get me some evidence, I will start believing"

Your above statement shows me what I've said already, you don't believe in acts of God, enough said (IMO).

You can go ahead and search for the scientific evidence of an act of God, but that isn't about religious ideology, it seems to me to be more about faith in science over faith in any other belief system. That is not what this thread is about.

I'm not going to argue for or against either (or any) belief. In my opinion, you seem to be a liberal college student and a cultural relativist, indoctrinated in to, and convinced of atheistic ideas. I'm fine if you have those beliefs, but I won't try to explain why I don't believe what you seem to, you are totally on your own with that one.

Just keep in mind, religion is not faith, a church is neither faith or religion, and nothing as great and complex as existence is by chance. This is of course just my opinion and I will not entertain anyone trying to bait me into any argument on ATS over religion.

If you need validation for your beliefs, or some kind of ego stroke for your flawless logic, go down to the hippie coffee shops or the student union building and put up your soap box there.

a reply to: Logarock

But the plagues were not for enslaving them but for not letting them go.

Of course, thank you for that correction Logarock.

In case you can't tell already, I'm into the New Testament and feel that the Old Testament is basically a Jewish history to be used for for reference.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck


Its ok man. There's a lot to read.

Would like to point out that this section of OT is very relevant to NT. Passover. Other things on many levels but not really mysterious.

One thing that sticks out to me is how nothing in the selection of various and even obvious displays of power, blood to water, days of pitch darkness, ect could convince the King to let the Hebrews go. It wasn't until the angel of death passed through the land that things started moving. Mankind is woefully hardheaded. Even the Hebrews were hard headed.

Now think of all the great works it is said Jesus did. But He knew what was in store for Him in the end anyway being the Passover Himself.